Best of 2023: Infrastructure is Personal with Sec. Pete Buttigieg

As we reflect on our best episode of 2023, we would be remiss not to include this wonderful conversation with Secretary of Transportation, Pete Buttigieg. We’ve wanted to talk to Pete for years and it was so exciting and enjoyable to finally make that happen.

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TRANSCRIPT

Alise [00:00:00] Welcome to the show. This is Alise, the Managing Director of Pantsuit Politics. We're so glad you joined us today. While our team has been off for the holidays, we've been sharing some of your favorite episodes from 2023. Today, we are wrapping that up with a milestone episode from the past year. Secretary Pete Buttigieg has been at the top of our guest wish list since he was Mayor Pete and broke out onto the national scene with his run for the presidency in 2020. We are all huge fans of him, his work and his family here. And we know so many of you are too. We loved this conversation he had with Sarah and Beth about the real world impacts of infrastructure and the work he's moving forward at the Department of Transportation. It originally aired in October, but it's all still just as relevant now.

Sarah: This is Sarah Stewart Holland.

Beth: And this is Beth Silvers. Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics.

[Music Interlude]

Thank you for joining us for a new episode of Pantsuit Politics, where we take a different approach to the news. Let us just cut to the chase. We have an extremely special episode for you today. Secretary of Transportation Pete Buttigieg is here. We have wanted to host Secretary Pete since March 2019, when I first recorded a premium episode about his campaign.

Sarah: We also saw him in a high school gymnasium in Dios Moines, Iowa, during the 2020 primary, and we were very taken in. As were many folks in Iowa and around the country, we were thrilled when he was confirmed to his position in the cabinet, and we tried so hard to get him here for our infrastructure series in 2021. Well, after four years of diligent pursuit, Secretary Pete is here. And we hope you agree with us that this conversation was worth the wait.

Beth: If you're new here, welcome. Since 2015, Sarah and I have been sitting down to process the news together. We believe in paying attention to the news, and that being engaged does not have to mean being constantly anxious and stressed. We release new episodes on Tuesdays and Fridays and hope that you'll join our loyal community of listeners who are some of the kindest and smartest people on the Internet.

Sarah: Without further ado, Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg.

[Music Interlude]

Beth: Mr. Secretary, we're so thrilled that you're here. We say that we take a different approach to the news, and by that we mean that we try to show up as whole people without any artificial distance between us and what we're talking about. And that's something that we've really admired about you. It seems like whatever question you answer, you show up as a whole person to answer that question. So I want to start by asking you about safety on the roads as one of the department's priorities. And I know that can sound bland in this news environment, but I ask it as a person who is part of the sad club of accidental killers. When I was in high school, I was in a car crash that was fatal for someone, and that has been with me every day for 25 years. And I know how many lives that one accident has impacted forever. So thinking through how personal that good, quiet government work is, I would love for you to tell us more about it.

Pete Buttigieg: Yeah, well, thanks for sharing that. And I'm sorry that that's part of your story. And the reality is that that's part of hundreds of thousands of Americans stories. Sometimes I think it's actually because car crashes, deadly car crashes are so frequent that we're sort of desensitized to it. You know, the number of people who lose their lives in a car crash every day in America, it's between 100 and 200 people. So that's dramatically more than are lost in railroad safety, for example, where it's thankfully in the single digits but needs to get to zero. And our focus is on how do we get to zero? In a typical year for airlines, the number actually is zero of lives lost even in that incredibly complex and seemingly risky, but actually very safe form of transportation. And yet, when it comes to our roads, 40,000 people a year dying is something that we're just sort of used to. So a big part of what we're trying to do, and I'm glad you raised this, is to just get it a little more on our consciousness. Because the other thing that might make us think it's unremarkable or just be used to, it is the idea there's nothing you can do. It's like getting hit by lightning, but it's not. Crashes are preventable. And they're preventable through lots of different things we can do to prevent them, only some of which have to do with drivers. That's part of it, of course. Safer people depending on the particular scenario. But a big part of a safer design, and safer vehicles and a better standard of care after a crash does happen if it wasn't prevented. And safer speeds. And all of those are things we can work on and we are. So I think when people hear there's $100 billion going into highways and presence infrastructure plan-- and we're excited about all the roadwork we're doing-- we're not just randomly putting up roads everywhere. We're making the roads we have safer than they were.

And that can be anything from a well-placed roundabout, which, believe it or not, can cut serious crashes by half or more in the right locations. Or whether it's so many cities, including my hometown of South Bend, where had a dense urban area, but a road going right through the middle of it that seemed designed to just evacuate cars just as quickly as possible with no regard for pedestrians, because that was kind of deprioritized, especially in the sixties when a lot of the choices were made that we're still living with. And now a lot of communities are trying to redesign those roads. They haven't always had the money to do it, but now we're bringing the money to do it all the way down to what NHTSA, which is the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, it's part of our department. Does any time they issue a recall for an airbag that isn't working the right way or those five star safety ratings that are part of a process making our cars vehicles radically safer than they used to be. One of the top things we're seeking to do here during my time at this department is to reverse the rise in roadway deaths. And the good news is they're starting to come down. So we track this on a quarterly basis. We just got our most recent set of numbers. They are down, but they're down just a little bit from a very high level. And so the question is now if we succeeded in stopping the rise of roadway deaths, how do we truly reverse it and accelerate that reversal? Because again, even a 1% change is 400 lives a year.

Sarah: I don't know if you're soliciting ideas, but I did notice when I was in Europe this summer their lights go from yellow to green. You know, we go green, yellow, red, and it's all at intersections. So much of this safety issue is at intersections. Roundabouts make perfect sense to me. So I thought, that's so good because it gives you that pause so you don't take off the second it turns green, because that intersection safety is huge.

Pete Buttigieg: A lot of what we work on here is the relationship between psychology and technology. Something as mundane as red and yellow lights and how do you behave when you see a yellow light? Does it make you slow down to stop, which is what you're supposed to do, or does it make you speed up to beat the light, which is what a lot of people do? This is becoming especially important right now because we have more and more technology in vehicles and a lot of vehicles now they have things that'll help you. Not just cruise control, but all kinds of things to nudge you back into your lane and so forth. But then there are other technologies in there that are designed to keep you from relying on the technology too much like the thing that in some cars, my mother's car has, is it shows a little cup of coffee saying, "Hey, pay attention," if the car thinks you have been taking your eye off the road or your hands off the wheel. So this is going to be an especially complicated thing in the 2020s when you have so much new technology. And what our team refers to as human factors need to get weighed in. And yet traffic lights are a classic example of that.

Sarah: Well, let's talk about the human factor with the Inflation Reduction Act, which we all describe as once in a generation infrastructure investment. And as we were talking about this as a team, we thought, well, once in a generation means that you're going to encounter a lot of generational attitudes about government that are really, really stuck in place. All the way from one side that I think says any government is too much government to the other side, which we hear you encountered yesterday, which is it's never enough, it's never good enough, it's never good enough. And so as you travel the country and you're encountering these sort of baked in attitudes, how are you changing that? Most importantly, are you seeing any movement in either direction? What are you seeing as you cross the country?

Pete Buttigieg: So I actually think transportation is one of the areas that we can use to break down some of those attitudes. Because things like tax policy, you have to really commit to thinking through what it means in order to shape your opinion or be willing to change your opinion about it. Transportation, everybody knows how this stuff affects them. Maybe you haven't thought about it in a certain light, but you think about it a lot because we all depend on transportation every day, it's a huge part of our lives and it's a huge part of the way we relate to the communities and neighborhoods we live in. And one of the reasons why I think the infrastructure package was bipartisan, it's in the name of the package, we call it the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law. It wasn't unanimous, but we did have a lot of Republicans cross over to work with the president, with Democrats on this. It's because you can cut through some of those attitudes, even people who generically think government spending is too much, also very specifically think more money ought to go into fixing the potholes on the road the drive on, and are willing to pay for that. Another example that I thought about a lot in the most recent shutdown countdown is the way that some of the policies we work on keep people safe or protect them financially. So I'll give you an example.

I do think one of those attitudes you're talking about that clearly was at play in the shutdown talk was this idea that a government employee, unless you're literally a soldier deployed, that anybody who works for the government is like a faceless paper pusher who's just part of the bureaucracy. Well, some of the paper that's getting pushed in this building is working on a rule that would give people money when your airline is responsible for you getting delayed for hours and hours and hours. You mentioned Europe. One thing Europe has is a pretty strict set of rules that says you get a certain-- and it's like hundreds of bucks. You can expect a certain amount of compensation. Now, we've had a major expansion in passenger rights in this country in the last couple of years that I'm very proud of. But one thing that we still don't have is any compensation for your time if an airline wastes it. We're rushing to get that kind of work out the door. But also, you have to take the time to do it properly because it's a rule that everybody has to follow. It's got huge financial implications. We have to take a lot of comments and weigh them. And so that's one example of the kind of white collar work that goes on in a government building like the headquarters where I'm sitting, that would have ground to a halt in a shutdown that I actually think people really do care about and would be upset to see it interrupted sitting at home, whether they're Republicans, Democrats or neither.

[Music Interlude]

Beth: Understanding that there's that kind of bipartisan support for the outcome of the legislation, I want to ask you about the process. Because we do want the potholes fixed and we like our roads to be safe and convenient. And it's also annoying when infrastructure projects are underway and even when we welcome change, think about high speed trains and some of the things that we could be doing that I think everyone would love once they're done. It's sort of emotional. The process of getting those things to us has to be frustrating for you and the president and your team that you're planting these seeds that won't be realized for a number of years down the road. So I would love to hear your reflections on how people can handle that process and what they can be thinking about in terms of where we're going.

Pete Buttigieg: Yeah, you're right. This is not like-- I used the example of tax policy a moment ago. But one nice thing about a tax policy is it's instant, right? Congress passed the tax credits then April 15th next year you're getting it. But some of these infrastructure projects are incredibly complex. I call them the cathedrals of our infrastructure. One thing about cathedrals. The people who laid the cornerstones aren't even there when the cathedral gets finished. Now, to be clear, that's not my expectation for a big bridge or tunnel. But it is true that some of these projects will be underway throughout this administration. There's some road realignments we can do in the summer, but there are some tunnels that need to be redone that are 100 years old. There's some airport terminals that need to be completely rebuilt. That's years and years and years. But the good news is, even while we're all impatient about seeing the project get from groundbreaking to ribbon cutting, something good is happening in the middle of it too, which is all the jobs just working on the project.

Sarah: So true.

Pete Buttigieg: So, yeah, when the airport terminal is done, it's going to support a lot of jobs because you'll have better air connectivity in your city. But when the airport terminal is underway, your cousin's working on the electrical wiring for the lighting in that airport today. And one thing that really excites me about this stage, which is still kind of early days in the grand scheme of things for the infrastructure package, is how we got the law passed. Our whole first year was about getting the law passed. And then we stood up the programs which were creating a lot of new multi-billion dollar programs, took about a year to do that. Now we're starting to get the money really flowing out the door, which means we're starting to get to some of those groundbreaking and meet the workers who are doing the work and raising their families on the income from that work, gaining skills, building careers. And because there's so much of it, it's not just like the one project, the airport project comes to town and then you don't know what you'll be doing afterwards. It really can be, I think, a decade of good paying jobs that you can count on if you're a young person deciding, do I want to sign up for this apprenticeship program and become an electrician or not? It gives you a good reason to invest in yourself and your own skills.

Sarah: I think that's a perfect thing for our listeners to say when people complain. Look at all those jobs. When people complain about infrastructure construction, I think that's such a great language to have. Look at all those people employed. Look at all those good jobs going into that project. Now, you did talk about the flow of money. Have you seen any common characteristics among state and local governments who are really making the most of this moment of this legislation? We are accepting compliments for our Kentucky governor, Andy Beshear, at this time. Thank you.

Pete Buttigieg: Well, since you mentioned him, he's been a terrific partner. And I'll give you a couple examples in Kentucky. One project that I was really moved to see for myself, and this is one that the governor, frankly, he wouldn't leave me alone about it, he kept talking about it. A place called Campbell Lake. And it's in the community of Jackson, which was part of that Appalachian region of Kentucky that was just brutally devastated by floods recently. And the project succeeded on the merits. We awarded funding that's going to be used to fix a highway there, but also because of the way the highway is built, there's basically a floodwall or a dam that's built into it, which means while we're improving the road, we're also improving the dam and making that community less vulnerable. Because there's a good chance there's going to be another one of those storms that we need to make sure it doesn't turn into another one of those floods. With that one, dozens of people lost their lives. And being in this community, and it was a small community-- I don't remember exactly, but I believe it was in the neighborhood of a couple thousand people in that particular place we visited-- where everybody wears multiple hats. The fire chief was also a Kentucky DOT employee who was helping to clear the roads, wearing his DOT hat so that his firefighter colleagues could get out to rescuing people. It was just an example of how community pulled together to look after each other. So whether I'm thinking about a project like that or actually also in Kentucky, in Lexington, there's a underpass that needs to be fixed or some of the safety work we're doing. We're in Albuquerque, there's a road called Coors Boulevard that just everybody knows when you hear about a crash, a good chance it was there. We're hoping to fix that.

Or whether it's 100 year old bridge or tunnel, it's going to take billions of dollars to do, but that hundreds of thousands of people count on to get in and out of New York. Or whether it's a port project. And most people will never notice. But what you will notice is the goods that you count on that are on containers, that moves through those ports are going to move a little more efficiently, which means it'll will cost less to ship them, which means it'll cost less to buy them. Those are the kinds of things that we see going on around the country. And the only other thing I'll point to that really excites me is every size of community and every size of project you can imagine is going on. Projects that are hundreds of millions of dollars or more and benefit millions of people in a big city. I was in South Dakota not long ago, went to a community called Chamberlain. They have an airport, even though it's a very small community, but it's so small that their general aviation terminal was basically a mobile home. They adapted a double wide and that was the terminal. They made it work. But with a six figure grant from our department, they're able to to build an actual permanent building. And it really matters because the main things they use that airport for are medevac and crop dusting. So super important to the people who live in that area, even if most people will never fly through or even hear of the airport in general in South Dakota. That's the kind of stuff that really excites me. And then the next day I could be at a place like LAX making somebody better off with these dollars.

Beth: So knowing how important the dollars are and the paper pushing that's happening as you've described it, tell us what you see as we approach another government funding deadline. Where is the department in terms of the work that's already been done, what's outstanding, and what do you really want people to know as we approach that November deadline?

Pete Buttigieg: Well, our job is to be ready for anything. And so I left the office the Friday, the last deadline, believing that we were likely headed toward a shutdown. And it was not going to be pretty, but we were going to do everything we could to make sure that we did right by our people. But there's just no way to sugarcoat the fact that, first of all, people don't get paid, including air traffic controllers. Just think for a minute. If showing up for work involves sitting down at a terminal in an air traffic control station or one of the other facilities that routes airplanes, knowing that every dot on your screen that you're making sure it gets in or out the right way represents dozens or even hundreds of lives that depend on you doing that job right. And then imagine showing up to that job with the added stress of having a rent payment or credit card bill about to be due and you didn't get paid. It's just unacceptable. You add to that the fact that we have a shortage right now of air traffic controllers. We need more. They're overworked and understaffed. And so we've got to hire more and we got to hire more and train more quickly. And a shutdown would instantly stop the training. And the way this training works, it builds on itself. So if you're out for a few days, that could actually set you back weeks or months in your train.

Now we have a whole academy in Oklahoma City would have to shut down immediately. So whether we're talking about the things that keep running but the people don't get paid like the air traffic controllers in the towers, or whether we're talking about things that stop altogether, whether it's working on that rule to get passengers paid back or whether it's training people to grow the ranks of the controllers, it really throws a wrench in so many things that people count on us to do. Now, there are some things we would be able to continue doing just because of the complexity of how they're funded. Some of our grants would continue the roads and bridges. We'd be able to do some of that work, but other pieces of it would get cut. And that's why I was sounding the alarm last time. And if they let it go to the brink again, I'm going to be sounding the alarm again, saying nobody wants this. And at the very least, we should be able to count on it. We can argue all day about exactly how the government should do its job, but the idea that it should be up and running I think should not be controversial.

Sarah: Secretary, we like to acknowledge our humanity Outside Politics here at the show. Now, I have three beautiful children, but I have a well-established stance against toddlers. I'd have seven kids if it weren't for toddlers. Okay. With one major exception. I love a toddler in a costume face. Have August and Penelope breached their costume face yet? That's what the people need to know.

Pete Buttigieg: So we're still in the decision making stage as far as the Halloween game plan.

Sarah: It's coming down to the wire, you better get on that.

Pete Buttigieg: Well, we had these baby shark costumes we were going to get, but they're on back order. So we got to come up with a plan B.

Sarah: Maybe call one of those ports, see where they at.

Pete Buttigieg: I was going to say, yeah, hope I was in the supply chain.

Sarah: No, the best, though, is they'll get a costume and then they're like, this is what I am every day.

Pete Buttigieg: Forever.

Sarah: Forever. And it's the best. If you have not walked through a mall with like a two or three-year-old in a costume, you have not lived. Like, you are humanity's gift. Everybody loves you. You're the center of the universe.

Pete Buttigieg: We know now that they're two they are starting to have very strong opinions about what they want to wear.

Sarah: Oh, yeah.

Pete Buttigieg: In fact, we went over these this morning, I happened to be-- Chasten was traveling. Often one of us is on solo dad mode, and that was me today. And our son August just decided he really did not want to wear pants.

Sarah: Yeah, right. Reasonable. See why I have a stance on toddlers?

Pete Buttigieg: But I thought maybe if I got the blue pants versus the green pants, he'd be cool.

Sarah: No.

Pete Buttigieg: He's just like, no want the pants.

Sarah: No.

Pete Buttigieg: And I'm explaining him that it's just really frowned on to go around without pants these days. It's kind of an important part of going about your day that even at your age guys are just expected to have pants. And he just wasn't having it. So we got there, but there's no arguing with a two-year-old.

Sarah: No. Have you seen that great tweet where it's like, imagine you sleep in, someone's prepared waffles for you and you're filled with rage. That's what it's like to be a toddler. Yeah, that's it. That's it.

Pete Buttigieg: Yeah. A lot of big feelings.

Beth: Well, we are very invested in your family, as so many Americans are. And we also love knowing that the three of us are all Midwestern elder millennials who go to church, which is statistically--

Sarah: We're weird, guys.

Beth: Kind of strange for this group of people. We're talking with you at an extremely difficult time in the world. And so knowing how important your faith is to you and to your family, we just wanted to end by asking you, in the course of being the United States secretary of transportation, where have you seen God today?

Pete Buttigieg: Well, it's hard not to see it in the face of your two year old children. Even if you are arguing about whether they need to wear pants before leaving the house.

Sarah: There's a parable there somewhere. There really is.

Pete Buttigieg: Yeah. Well, especially in the New Testament so much of the humor, I think, in scripture comes from status shifts. There's a kind of the humor and the power of so many of the parables and so many of the teachings in the New Testament have to do with these moments or stories that throw the high and mighty off of their high and mighty seats and elevate the humble and the castaways and the vulnerable. And you have your status shifted every few minutes when you think you're in charge and your toddler kind of lets you know what's what. Like, I think most people I don't know that anything's brought me closer to God than having people in my life, my spouse and now my children, who I've learned to love more than myself and more than whatever was important to me when I got up in the morning. And there's definitely a lot of the divine in all of that.

Sarah: Secretary, thank you so much.

Pete Buttigieg: Thank you! Thanks for having me.

Alise [00:24:57] Thanks again to Secretary Buttigeig for joining us and to all of you for listening. 2023 was a milestone year for us in so many ways, and we have big hopes and big plans for 2024. We can't wait to kick it all off with you as we return to our regular content schedule. For today, we hope you are having the happiest start to the New Year available to you. 

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Sarah: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. 

Beth: Alise Napp is our managing director. Maggie Penton is our director of Community Engagement. 

Sarah: Xander Singh is the composer of our theme music with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima. 

Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers. 

Executive Producers: Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Katina Zuganelis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Molly Kohrs. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. Emily Neesley. The Pentons. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Emily Helen Olson. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh. Jen Ross. Sabrina Drago. Becca Dorval. Christina Quartararo. Shannon Frawley. The Lebo Family. The Adair Family.

Sarah: Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.