Girls State: Teens Enter the Halls of Power
We are thrilled to share our conversation with listener Kelsey Whitt about her participation in the Missouri Girls State Program and the documentary premiering this weekend on Apple TV.
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TRANSCRIPT
Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.
Beth [00:00:09] This is Beth Silvers.
Sarah [00:00:10] You're listening to Pantsuit Politics.
Beth [00:00:12] Where we take a different approach to the news.
[00:00:14] Music Interlude.
[00:00:29] Hi, it's Beth. Thank you so much for joining me today. Sarah is on spring break with her family, but fear not, her voice will be in this conversation. She recently sat down with Kelsey Whitt, who appears in the upcoming Apple TV documentary, Girls State. Girls State programs introduce young women to the halls of power. You can imagine that we are very much here for that. We always end our show talking about what's on our minds Outside of Politics. And today I'm going to review a product from a global juggernaut taking things in a new and unexpected direction. But first, if you've heard us talk about our book club and have been uncertain about the details, I want to flesh that out for you for a minute. The book club is one piece of our paywalled membership community. That community funds every podcast you listen to for free here in the feed. And the book club happens in addition to Good Morning and More to Say and many other fun things that we try to do to say thank you to the people who support our work. We have had a bunch of different iterations of the book club over the years. It was started and originally headed by our executive producer Megan Hart. These days we are curating themed pairings of books. This winter, our books focused on company towns. Sarah chose the book Her Country by Marissa Moss, about the struggle of women in country music. And in a very timely universal coincidence, we are going to share the conversation we had with Marissa Moss about this book this week in that paywalled membership community on More to Say. Just perfect timing since so much is happening for women in country music.
[00:02:04] And we have previously shared our discussion with Ben Terris, who wrote the book The Big Break. That was my selection for this book box. It is about insiders in Washington, D.C., and it's just such a colorful look at the people who make the industry of politics spin in Washington, DC. What do we mean by book club? I know that it can mean many different things, including not really reading a book and just getting together with your friends for drinks. Listen, we do try to read the books. We discuss the books together. Often, we are interviewing the authors of the books and sharing those conversations. We have discussion threads. We have a live book club night that Elise, Maggie, and premium member, and librarian Beth Shaum [sp] host. So you get all of that behind the paywall. You can join the community on Apple Podcast subscriptions or on Patreon. Now, which is the right choice for you? If you just want to hear what we make about the books, Apple is a great option. If you love discussing, if you like to get in a comment thread and interact with all of these smart, funny, insightful people that we call the Spice Cabinet, you'll want to join on Patreon so that you have that interactive element. You can get these books however you'd like. If you would like an extra layer of Pantsuit Politics fun, we partner with a listener, Lisa, who owns the Bookshelf on Church in Irvington, Virginia. Lisa puts together a special box with both of the books we've selected and some extra treats. So this is really a win-win because as a community, we get to support one of our community members' small business, and then Lisa gives back by making these boxes such a joy to receive.
[00:03:42] I love it when a plan comes together like this. So we'll tell you the books in the premium community. You can go grab them yourself, or you can get them from Lisa, and then you can join in all of this fun discussion and thinking around the box. All the information you need is in the show notes. I do recognize this is a lot, so if you have any questions or you need a hand, just email us at Hello@pantsuitpolitics.com and stay tuned for our announcements of our next big box we're really excited about. Let's talk about Kelsey Whitt and Girls State. So many of us want to be more involved in our communities and in public service, but we don't really know where to start. Girl State and Boy State programs were created by the American Legion to fix that problem, to give young people access to power, to build civic muscles. Students who participate in these programs actually form a government and operate as a government. They run for offices from mayors to governors. They elect judges who then preside over legal matters. They learn by participating that they are qualified. They learn to strategize and persuade each other. They learn how to be disappointed, which is one of the hardest parts of putting yourself out there to serve. If you listen to the show regularly, but you find yourself intimidated on how to get more involved in your community, imagine what it might have meant to you to have been elected to the Girl's State Supreme Court, and to have made some lifelong friendships in that space.
[00:05:10] So these programs put together everything we love: gathering, curiosity, learning, encouragement, and the belief that everyone can contribute. We were so excited to learn that Kelsey Whitt, a Pantsuit Politics listener, appeared in the New Girl State documentary that will be released this Friday, April 5th on Apple TV. Girls State follows up on a 2020 documentary about a Texas Boys State program. Girls State follows young women in Missouri forming their government, learning how the system works. Kelsey served as an advisor of the judicial branch in the students’ government, so she helped guide young women as they created court systems and resolved legal disputes. She generously offered to share her experience with us in advance of that documentary being released. You are going to love hearing her talk with Sarah about her experience, and about just the phenomenal opportunity these programs provide future leaders across the country.
[00:06:05] Music Interlude.
Sarah [00:06:15] I am so thrilled to be here today with Kelsey Whitt, the education liaison for the American Legion Auxiliary Missouri Girls State Program. And Kelsey is here because the Missouri Girls State program just participated in a documentary from filmmakers Amanda McBaine and Jesse Moss that's coming out April 5th on Apple TV called Girls State. I've seen it. You just watched it?
Kelsey Whitt [00:06:38] I did.
Sarah [00:06:39] You hadn't seen it yet?
Kelsey Whitt [00:06:40] No.
Sarah [00:06:40] And we are so thrilled to have you here to talk about it.
Kelsey Whitt [00:06:44] Well, I'm thrilled to be here.
Sarah [00:06:46] So, first, before we get into the film, tell us what Girls State is for people who don't know. I want to jump right in because I went to Girls State in Kentucky, so I know what Girls State is. But tell people who don't know; tell us what it is.
Kelsey Whitt [00:06:58] Well, I went to Girls State in Missouri in 2002, so we have that in common Sarah. But, what is it? It is a program sponsored by the American Legion Auxiliary. It began in the state of Missouri in 1940.
Sarah [00:07:12] You were the first ones.
Kelsey Whitt [00:07:13] We were one of the first ones, yes. We were one of the first 11 programs to start this off. So for the last 80 some years, the women and men of the state of Missouri have been educating young women about what it's like to participate in state and local governments. So we give these young women an opportunity to make their own city governments, their own county governments, and their own state government. Our theory is that you learn best by doing. And so that's what we do.
Sarah [00:07:45] I mean, I still remember it. I still remember the elections for governor and the campaign signs. I think I was a legislator. Are y'all ready for this? Are you ready for this, Kelsey? Are you ready for the bill I introduced?
Kelsey Whitt [00:07:55] I am.
Sarah [00:07:55] It was a partial birth abortion ban. That's what I spent my time at Girls State doing because I was very, very conservative evangelical Christian at the time. And so I think I still have the legislation. I have some of the campaign posters. I remember it as such a fun, exhilarating time to feel like we were getting to do these things that we'd seen adults doing, and we were getting to practice, and we were getting to feel like what it was like to campaign and legislate and make these decisions and debate. And so I was thrilled to hear that the documentarians who produced a Boy State documentary, have now done a Girls State documentary. And this was the first year that Missouri had the girls and boys there at the same time, which is a key plot point in the film.
Kelsey Whitt [00:08:40] Yes. So when the filmmakers approached us about this, it was filmed in 2022, and we were approached before the pandemic about it, honestly, in early 2020, I believe. And we knew that they had done this other film. And for 79 years we had held our programs at different times. For the last 20, we had had them on the same campus, but boys would go first and then the girls would show up next. It was a week apart. So when we had the opportunity to have the program move it to a new location to Lindenwood University in 2022, as well as combined with our male counterparts, Missouri Boys State, we were thrilled at the opportunity, but it was one of those things we had to make a phone call to the filmmakers going, mmh, so, we're changing--
Sarah [00:09:29] I would say they were like, great, sounds great.
Kelsey Whitt [00:09:32] We're changing the location, number one. and number two, we're going to co-host with our male counterparts for the first time ever. So it was a shock to them, but I think it made for a better story.
Sarah [00:09:44] Yeah. And part of the story is the girls seeing sort of the difference between the boys state and the girls state, there's a lot of intense energy around the girls dress code in particular. But you said, when I asked you what did you think of the film, that the same critiques that they have every year they had this year. It wasn't really about being nice to the boys, that they've had these critiques in the past.
Kelsey Whitt [00:10:05] Yeah, they've had these critiques for years. And so the Missouri Girls State program has always had a more elevated dress code for evening. They can wear whatever they want during the day. But the thought is we don't create this dress code to police their bodies. I don't care what they wear personally. Most of the staff doesn't care what they wear. Instead, it's a situation that we have to learn, especially as young women. We have to learn what to wear in a professional environment. So I'll give you an example. Before I went to Girls State, I went to an interview to be a bank teller on Saturdays at my local bank, wearing a pair of shorts. Now, was that appropriate? No, that was not appropriate, but I didn't know what you were supposed to do.
Sarah [00:10:52] Well, when we did a show on the dress code, we had a listener say, (and I use these words all the time) clothing communicates. Clothing communicates. You cannot erase that reality, it just does. And so you have to decide what you want to communicate.
Kelsey Whitt [00:11:04] One hundred percent. And what we like to explain to them-- and I don't think it came across in the film. And that's okay, just in a manner of creating stories. But the reason we do it is that if you are a young woman, 16, 17, 18 years old and you don't know how to dress professionally, I rather you screw up in front of me because I'm not going to judge you. There are zero stakes at Girl State to not dress appropriately, but I don't want you to do that in a job interview or a college admissions interview.
Sarah [00:11:30] I think that's great. That doesn't make a fun, exciting documentary, plotline. So it makes sense to me. And it is fun to watch the girls sort of navigate the campaigning, navigate their frustrations. They're really focused on one young woman, Emily, who comes in, she's conservative and she's going to run for governor. She meets everybody. She really works the like retail side of the politics, but she struggles with public speaking and you follow her journey through-- I don't want to spoil the election results. But from the election results, she goes into this journey of like, what are the differences between Boys and Girls State? And I thought the best part she sort of hones in on is not the dress code, but the fact that there is so much more funding for the Boys State than the Girls State. I thought that was a great through line they followed.
Kelsey Whitt [00:12:21] Absolutely. And the through line is that in 2022, Missouri Girls State operated on a budget of $200,000, and the same year, Missouri Boys State operated on a budget of $600,000, which that is a huge difference. And you may be wondering, okay, why are we not investing as much in the girls as in the boys? The American Legion sponsors the Missouri Boys State program, and that program was allowed by the Legion years and years ago, (I think 40, 50 years ago) to be a separate entity from the American Legion. So they are a non-for-profit corporation in the state of Missouri, and they have 501 C-3 status. So they have access to all of these funds. They can apply for grants. They get more big time donations. The American Legion Auxiliary Missouri Girls State program, on the other hand, is a part of the American Legion Auxiliary, and we are required to follow all of their rules. And the American Legion Auxiliary is a 501 C-19, that is veterans advocacy groups, and we do not have as great of a pool to fundraise from because we have the limitation of being able to advocate for veterans causes.
Sarah [00:13:40] And that's such a great thing for the girls to learn. I think this is not about people being, like, I want the boys to do better. Like it's not necessarily nefarious, but there were some decisions made and these are the consequences of the decisions. It complicates the ways in which we can raise money. I just think that that's what you want them learning in a situation like this. That it's not this black and white good versus bad, but that it's infinitely more complicated than you want it to be.
Kelsey Whitt [00:14:06] Absolutely. And also one of the reasons we decided to co-host is so that we could combine our resources and create a better experience for the young women, and honestly, a better experience for the young men as well. It wasn't that Boys State had everything figured out, and Girls State was just we had no idea what we're doing. No, it's not that at all. It's just that Girls State because our budget is $200,000-- or was that year-- we're a lot scrappier.
Sarah [00:14:33] Yeah.
Kelsey Whitt [00:14:34] So the women who have been running these programs for 80 years, we've just figured out how to make do without. Just put your head down and do it.
[00:14:41] Music Interlude.
Sarah [00:14:52] The other interesting part of watching their journeys, particularly as girls, is they're trying to figure out that sort of likability situation. There was a lot of apologizing. Well I'm this, but I still like you. Or I feel this way about this issue, but I really think you have a right to believe what you want. And there was even a moment where they're like, we're not really talking about the stuff we want to talk about because everybody's so afraid to bring it up. I mean, because the other very interesting part of timing with this documentary is it was the summer that Roe v Wade was overturned.
Kelsey Whitt [00:15:20] Yes. And so one thing about me is that I work for the Missouri judiciary. That's my office in the courthouse. And I cannot have any public statements about the law. And so I, after the Dobbs draft came out-- it was leaked in May, I believe.
Sarah [00:15:38] Because they're talking about it in the documentary. They know the opinion is out there, but it hasn't been decided yet.
Kelsey Whitt [00:15:43] Yes. So we know that the Dobbs draft has leaked. And I had a meeting with the filmmakers in which I had to say, in the event that this Dobbs decision comes down, it's actually handed down during the week, there will not be cameras on me in particular. But it was forefront at the girl's mind.
Sarah [00:16:01] It really was. And, look, it was when I was there. You're a young girl and one of the most salient-- it kind of brings tears to my eyes-- issues in America is abortion. And you're about to start your life as an adult woman and your reproductive journey is all you can think about.
Kelsey Whitt [00:16:18] Absolutely. One thing I told all of the staff to be sensitive about on the boys side and on the girls side, is that some of these young women may have already had abortions. They're 16, 17 years old, that's not unheard of.
Sarah [00:16:33] Absolutely. And so watching them navigate that and figure out where fellow Girl State participants stood, being able to get out there and say what they wanted to say and let the chips fall where they may like, it was just so fascinating to watch them navigate this. And kudos to the program that gives them the space to do that instead of tightly controlling all their debate and tightly controlling all their communications. One of my favorite relationships was between Emily and Maddie. Emily's very conservative, she's saying she wants to run for governor. Maddie is LGBTQ; she's very open. And there's this beautiful moment where Maddie says, "I don't think she's going to win. I'm going to vote for her because I think she's a good person." And they're friends through the whole documentary. And I remember those moments in Girls State. I think because there is just enough framework, just enough suspension of reality, but also this paradox of creating your own reality, creating your own government, it allows some space for you to see beyond the traditional ways you engage around these issues.
Kelsey Whitt [00:17:43] Absolutely. And at Missouri Girls State, we don't put any parameters on what they can and cannot speak about. To the extent that these young women were complaining they weren't talking about issues. We're not stopping you, go for it. You make of this week whatever you want. For example, each political party, there are two fictional political parties. They don't have platforms. The young women have to make those up themselves. We're not involved in that. That's your job. We're there to facilitate and help you learn.
Sarah [00:18:14] Well, this is a two part question. So what do you think the documentary does a really good job of illuminating as a part of those journeys for the girls, that you saw like, oh yeah, this happens every year and it's always the best thing to see. And what do you think they missed?
Kelsey Whitt [00:18:27] The best thing that we see every week is the transformation of these young women. So if you think about Nisha [sp] at the beginning of the documentary, she is the young woman who's a little timid and she's incredibly bright. Nisha is incredibly bright. But at the beginning, she's very timid and worried about her social skills. And by the end, she's made a best friend with another young woman, Brooke [sp], who has ran for the Supreme Court against her. And it's so nice to watch these girls come out of their shells every single year. They start off timid, but by the end of the week they've made 30, 40, 50, 700 new friends. And they're confident and they believe that they have the skills to participate in government and to be leaders more generally in the community.
Sarah [00:19:20] And what do you think they missed?
Kelsey Whitt [00:19:23] I think what they missed is the transformation regarding some of the unique traditions at Girl State across the country. We have this song that we sing and there's a line in it that goes, basically, we are the future leaders and we're progressive, kind and strong. Now, progressive doesn't have anything to do with politics. No. It's this idea that we just want to make progress, and we're also going to be kind and we're also going to be strong. And so the song, it's depicted as this very silly thing in the documentary. By the end of the week, every girl is humming it and is so excited and it's something that pumps them up.
Sarah [00:19:58] There's this great GK. Chesterton quote that's like our most forgotten constituency, which is our ancestors and everybody that comes before us. And so I think anytime you can pull on that and put a finger on it and say everything-- especially for girls that age-- everything important is not just what's going to happen to you in the future. They're important things that happened in the past that we want you to sort of see and recognize. And I think songs that pull people together, singing together, there's some really hardcore psychology around that. So I like those moments. I know that I could tell that they were chuckling with the hand gestures and stuff, but I think you have to have something that puts people together and say, we share this. It's not just about our individual journeys, but this is a shared experience as well. It's really beautiful. And that's what the parts I remember from Girls State, is that feeling of we were in it together, we were aiming for something together. And I think it's really, really lovely. And watching these couple girls, there's part of me that's like, how did they know to pick that one? But then I wonder if ever you're like, that girl, that girl's going to go on to something big. And we're talking about future leaders. You can identify the girl in the documentary, CC Barton, who you're like, "First of all, Cecelia Barton is an incredible name." Good job for her parents. But you're watching her and by the end, you're like, "I'll send myself a note to check in on CC in a couple years to see what she's up to."
Kelsey Whitt [00:21:20] Absolutely. It's like that every year when they check in at the program, you can tell who is going to be a leader and who's going to just start out the gates running. But then sometimes we'll have somebody who is a bit of a dark horse. So, for example, I want to say-- oh gosh, it's been 10 years ago now, but we had a young woman, the only thing that she ran for the entire week (nothing at city government, nothing at county) was governor. And my goodness, if she has not been one of the best governors we've ever had. And it's just that sometimes your confidence comes at the right spot, right time.
Sarah [00:21:56] Yeah, that's always true of real horse races and actual candidates in horse races like that. Well, thank you so much for coming here and talking to us about this. Is there anything else you want people to know about Girls State?
Kelsey Whitt [00:22:08] I just want everyone to know that the American Legion Auxiliary hosts a Girls State program in every single state and in DC. So if civics education is something that you are passionate about, get involved. There is nothing that says you cannot volunteer for this program because you've never been. You can come volunteer, be part of the transformation of America's youth into the next leaders.
Sarah [00:22:37] That would be fun. I would like to volunteer one year in Girls State. I need to look into that in my own home state.
Kelsey Whitt [00:22:42] You're in Paducah, right? It's not that far to Saint Louis, right? I mean, if you want to come.
Sarah [00:22:45] No. You want me to come to yours? She's like, forget Kentucky, come to mine.
Kelsey Whitt [00:22:49] Forget Kentucky, come to Missouri.
Sarah [00:22:52] It's not that far. It might be closer than Louisville if that's where the [inaudible]/ Well, thank you so much. Thank you so much for coming on the show.
Kelsey Whitt [00:22:57] My pleasure. Thank you.
Sarah [00:22:58] And the documentary comes out April 5th on Apple TV. So check it out guys.
[00:23:01] Music Interlude.
Beth [00:23:11] We always end our podcast talking about something Outside of Politics. And, look, what I really want to talk about here or anywhere else is Cowboy Carter. I could do an entire 90 minute episode by myself about Cowboy Carter. I could do an entire 90 minute episode by myself, just about Beyoncé's renovation of Jolene. But I thought about it, and it seems very rude to discuss it without Sarah. So I'm going to wait. I might explode, but I'm going to wait. Instead, today I would like to discuss another icon, changing directions, and offer you some thoughts on Coca-Cola Spice. Let me first declare my devotion to Coca- Cola. I have loved Coca-Cola since my second grade teacher gave me a cold can of coke to calm a stomach ache. And I know that is not how we would deal with a second grader stomach ache today, but it was the 80s and it worked. And I thought it was so perfect, so sweet and so bubbly and so cold. It was like the nectar of the gods to me. And since then, I will admit that I've been hooked. When I feel the absolute worst, I want a regular Coke, fully loaded caffeine and sugar. The rest of the time you pour me a Diet Coke or a Coke Zero over soft ice with lime, and I can do anything. And I am not interested in anyone's soda judgment. We all have our vices, this one is mine. I love it so much that I am agnostic between Diet Coke and Coke Zero. I do not, however, want a Pepsi product ever for any reason. Is Pepsi okay? No, never for me is Pepsi okay. So I knew the Coca-Cola Spice was coming. I felt skeptical, but I didn't think a lot about it.
[00:24:47] Well, this weekend, as we were leaving our first baseball game of the season, hooray, a marketing team was waiting outside with ice cold Coca Cola Spice. I should have known by the way that the person who handed me one, the person wearing the Coca Cola Spice shirt looked at me, her mouth was saying, don't you want one? But her eyes were saying, don't do it. So we get in the car and Chad opens his up and he takes a sip and he doesn't say very much, so I reluctantly take a drink. And listener, I did not like it. So many things. First of all, raspberry is not a spice. I will try to give the marketing team some slack, but raspberry is the predominant taste that comes through and raspberry is not a spice. Also, I have never once sipped a regular Coke and felt it lacked something, or that it specifically lacked artificial fruit flavor. And that's what's happening here. This doesn't taste like Coke with raspberry. It tastes like Coke with raspberry candy. Chad said raspberry Pop Rocks and I think that's pretty close. Jane, my 13-year-old, said that it reminded her of those hard candies that are tiny that are shaped like bananas. And I said that image is coming to mind for you because those little banana candies are the universal symbol for fake fruit flavor. Somehow when you combine fake raspberry with Coca-Cola, it produces a very weird taste with a slightly different viscosity than a normal soft drink. I think Spice tastes like it should help us with sniffling, sneezing, stuffy head aching and fever so we can rest. But we are not going to rest because we are going to be high on sugar and caffeine.
[00:26:25] I do not mean to be a person who stands with work progress yelling stop! I just think that some things-- a few really in this vast universe that is constantly changing. Some things nailed it the first time and that is where I stand with Coca-Cola. I hope that wherever you are in the world right now, you are surrounded by the refreshing beverages that you love. And I hope that if this episode spoke to you, you'll consider getting involved with a Girls State program or a Boys State program. Both, phenomenal. I'll be back with you on Friday with my husband, Chad, sitting in for Sarah. Until then, have the best week available to you.
[00:27:00] Music Interlude.
Sarah: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production.
Beth: Alise Napp is our managing director. Maggie Penton is our director of Community Engagement.
Sarah: Xander Singh is the composer of our theme music with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima.
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Executive Producers: Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Katina Zuganelis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. The Pentons. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Emily Helen Olson. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh. Jen Ross. Sabrina Drago. Becca Dorval. Christina Quartararo. Shannon Frawley. Jessica Whitehead. Samantha Chalmers. Crystal Kemp. The Lebo Family. The Adair Family.
Sarah: Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.