The Shutdown Benefits Republicans (For Now)

and ICE Raids aren't about crime anymore.

Not to bury the lede, but last weekend’s news is kind of a drag.

• The government is shut down for the foreseeable future, and as long as it is, Speaker Mike Johnson doesn’t have to deal with the Epstein files, Russ Vought can (allegedly) fire government employees at will, and we can argue about whose fault it is.

• ICE and the Department of Homeland Security continue to harass, abduct, and send people away for what seems to be no reason.

• The President is sending troops into American cities because…he can.

• Even Taylor Swift’s lollipop of an album has gotten pulled into an “are you with us or against us” discourse.

It’s rough out there. And yet…Portland is protesting as only Portland can.

@erinquinnhMeanwhile in Portland.. #iceoutofpdx #fyp#portland #musicfestival #workingclass

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People are looking out for each other in Chicago.

jcfrias

A post shared by @jcfrias

Would I, personally, prefer a strong rebuke from an in-session Congress? Yes.
Would I, personally, prefer the Supreme Court assert a twinge of authority? Yes.

Do I WEIRDLY find myself rooting for Thomas Massie, Rand Paul, and Marjorie Taylor Greene???

I do.

These are strange times. And, I know it sounds corny, but there is a kind of hope and (dare I say) patriotism in keeping your eyes open and hanging in with your country when it’s going through some things.

That’s what Sarah and Beth are doing today.

Our country has always been an idea that we work on together, and today (as always), I look forward to hearing how we can form a more perfect¹ union together.

-Maggie

Topics Discussed

• The Government Is (Still) Shut Down

• National Guard Deployments in Portland

• ICE in Chicago

• Outside of Politics: The Life of a Showgirl

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Episode Resources

Pantsuit Politics Resources

• Visit our Best Holiday Shop Available open for TWO WEEKS ONLY for treats for the Pantsuit Politics listener in your life.

Government Shutdown

• Thune warns Democrats about Russ Vought: ‘We don’t control what he’s going to do’ (Politico)

National Guard Deployments and ICE Operations

• More People Are in Immigration Detention Than Ever Before (Vera Institute)

• News from TRAC: Indiscriminate Arrests and Detention: Number of ICE Detainees With Criminal Convictions Drops (TRAC)

• Civil rights jobs have been cut. Those ex-workers warn of ICE detention violations (NPR)

• ICE impersonator incidents rise during Trump’s second term (CNN)

• Immigration agents use increasingly aggressive tactics in Chicago | AP News

• State of Oregon v. Donald Trump (District Court of Oregon)

• Are attacks on ICE officers, facilities in the US rising? (Al Jazeera)

• Trump says ‘it’s anarchy’ in Portland. Here’s why locals say that’s far from reality | CNN

• Editorial: Keep proving Trump wrong (Oregon Live.com)

TLOAS

• Taylor Swift: In praise of an uncomplicated good time

• Olivia Dean

• Patty Griffin

• Brandi Carlile

• Lola Young, the new British voice in the long shadow of Amy Winehouse | Culture (EL PAÍS English)

• Amanda Shires Says the Highwomen Are Reuniting to Work on New Songs (Rolling Stone)

Show Credits

Pantsuit Politics is hosted by Sarah Stewart Holland and Beth Silvers. The show is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our Managing Director and Maggie Penton is our Director of Community Engagement.

Our theme music was composed by Xander Singh with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima.

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To search past episodes of the main show or our premium content, check out our content archive.

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Episode Transcript

Sarah [00:00:08] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.

Beth [00:00:10] This is Beth Silvers. You’re listening to Pantsuit Politics. Today, we’re going to talk about the government shutdown and the presence of federal law enforcement and national guard troops in cities around the country. Outside of Politics, what else? Taylor Swift has a new album. We have opinions like everybody else does. We’ll just add our two cents to that billion dollar fountain today.

Sarah [00:00:32] Before we get to the tough news, let’s start with something fun. Our incredible executive producer, Christy, has put together a holiday collection of limited run, one-time only merchandise just for you. These are really high quality, fun products, and we can hear you guys saying, it’s not even Halloween, why are you doing a holiday sale? Trust us, this will be worth it. Christy is taking all the orders, fulfilling them with her partners, and they will arrive in late November, early December, so you will have the treat of getting them, and then just after Thanksgiving, the double treat of knowing you’ve already done your Christmas shopping. This is, again, a limited run, one time only collection. You have two weeks to get your orders in, so be sure to visit Pantsuit Politics Shop, not show, today and get your order in. You can go directly to paintsouppoliticsshop.com or check out the link in our show notes to get you your treats.

Beth [00:01:18] Next up, let’s talk about this government shutdown. Sarah, I’m feeling like this is one that’s going to last a while.

Sarah [00:01:37] I don’t see any end in sight.

Beth [00:01:40] I don’t know how we get out. I don’t see a lot of motivation to get out, especially on the part of Republicans. I think that what I realize more with every passing day is that this inures to Republicans benefits right now because it gives Russ Vought all the runway he wants to shut down things that the president doesn’t particularly like. Congressional Republicans have never liked having a whole lot of actual responsibility. They’d much rather take shots at things. And so they don’t have any actual responsibility right now as they see it. And then there is the Epstein piece of things that Thomas Massie, my representative, keeps talking about. If they bring us back in session, they know they have to swear in this new representative from Arizona, and that will give me the votes I need to force a discharge petition, which is a very legalistic way of saying to force vote on the floor on releasing more of what the government has about Jeffrey Epstein. So all of those things kind of work to Republicans’ benefit.

Sarah [00:02:44] I disagree, actually. I don’t think this is working to the Republicans’ advantage. I think having control of the House, Senate, and the presidency, and shrugging your shoulders in the face of a government shutdown doesn’t read well, even to the passive news consumer. You’re in control and you are not fixing this. And you are the fixers. Donald Trump in particular has told us all repeatedly that he can fix basically anything. I think the people who care deeply about the Jefferey Epstein situation, crime, controversy, conspiracy theory, whatever you want to call it, they’re following this. They know exactly what’s going on. They know they’re not swearing in this Arizona representative because they would have the votes for the discharge petition. I think they’re following that and it’s just going to piss them off more and more and more. I think the fact that you are seeing this sort of shrug from the Republicans and the backtracking and the sort of desperate or at least frantic messaging around healthcare, tells me that it’s hitting.

[00:03:47] So if Mike Johnson comes out and is like, they’re trying to give healthcare to illegal immigrants and then backs off that and nobody’s backing him up in that messaging, that to me shows it’s not working. Healthcare is the one thing the American people still trust Democrats on. So I think zeroing in on this and using this as an ability and an opportunity to say we care about this too. We think this is unacceptable, and they’re doing absolutely nothing about it. I’m not saying this is like some knock it out of the park win for the Democratic party, but I think on the whole, this is playing out badly for the Republicans, including the fact that Russell Vought has not done everything he said he’s going to do. He was like expect it within days, and we have not seen these massive layoffs. To me, that is also a tell. So I just see in the midst of this shoulder shrugging, lots of weak points from a party that supposedly loves a fight.

Beth [00:04:44] Yeah, I don’t really disagree with any of that. It’s not that I think this is long-term good for the party, but I think right now the incentives are not for them to do much about it. I think they’re kind of stuck because a lot of what this administration is doing is very, very unpopular. And I almost feel like for congressional Republicans, there is this place of like maybe if we just sit still, maybe if we don’t do anything else, it can all just kind of simmer and not blow back on us too much.

Sarah [00:05:13] How’s that working for you guys? Is that really how you think this is going to play out? Like that’s a that’s ill-informed and bad instincts in personal view.

Beth [00:05:21] Do you think I’m wrong though?

Sarah [00:05:23] I don’t know if that’s how they all feel. I think the most promising development here is that you’re getting a lot of mixed messages. You’re seeing Marjorie Taylor Greene come out and say, “Shut it down, kill the filibuster. We can pass this if we want to, but we won’t.” You’re seeing Rand Paul and Thomas Massie in the libertarian wing of the party still pushing hard on this Epstein thing. You’re seeing a lot people just retired. They’re not even in it anymore. They’re out running for attorney general or governor or whatever, which I think is another tell. So I think the fact that there isn’t just one reaction, even between John Thune and Mike Johnson, is another weak point that’s going on here.

Beth [00:06:05] Yeah, I think what I’m describing feels to me truest about John Thune. That his theory of the case right now is just to try to stay in some kind of very uncontroversial lane. I don’t think that works long-term. I don’t know how long they can be in this place. I think when people start missing paychecks, even the dynamics change. But as I’m sitting here today, the stories that make me the angriest are the stories about how they’re not really trying. They’re negotiating the way that you should be negotiating to get out of something like this. And I just feel like that’s because John Thune is pretty rudderless.

Sarah [00:06:42] Why does he keep bringing it for a vote in the Senate? That’s what I don’t understand. Like, why do you just keep bringing up for a vote over and over and over again? That is not something Mitch McConnell would do.

Beth [00:06:49] He wants a handful of Democrats to fold and save him. That’s what I think.

Sarah [00:06:52] But I don’t think that’s going to do it. It just shows that you continue to not have the votes. I think that Mike Johnson and John Thune are new leaders who do not have the experience and we are all seeing from both sides of the aisle, like the Mitch McConnell and the Nancy Pelosi strategies and how strong they were and how hard that job is are really coming to the forefront.

Beth [00:07:20] Yeah, I don’t know how any of this will play long-term to the public or even medium term, what difference it will make by the time we get to midterm elections. But I do think that it is exposing all of these little fissures that are going to keep getting worse on both sides of the aisle probably. You have Democrats who are all in on the healthcare message and I think everybody’s doing a pretty good job reiterating those points right now. It is going to be hard. We had a really good comment from one of our listeners, Lou, about how it is a weird message to say I think Trump is staging an authoritarian takeover of the country, but also we’ll just keep funding the government if he fixes our healthcare problem. That’s tough. So everybody has a hard job to do here. On the retirements, that is, to me, like the key. If you are sitting in Congress right now as a Republican, watching the disdain for Congress that this administration has, I don’t know why you would want to be there. I don’t know why you wouldn’t go home and run for governor.

Sarah [00:08:21] To Lou’s point though, here’s the thing. It assumes that those stand on equal footing. It assumes that people care deeply about healthcare and also are concerned about the authoritarian bent of the Trump administration and democracy broadly. That might be true from the democratic base. Do I think that is true for a broad base of Americans? I do not. I think that even people who are concerned about some of the actions the Trump Administration is taking in these cities or with regards to ICE, would not describe that as an assault on democracy. That is not how I think people, particularly who are passive news consumers and not overtly political, think about our current moment. That is both a burden and an opportunity. But I don’t think you have to put those two pieces together because I think for a lot of Americans, they are not in the same thought process.

Beth [00:09:17] No, I think most Americans would use those words. I do think the tension is ratcheting up, which is probably a good transition to talk about the presence of federal law enforcement and some National Guard troops in cities. Just to do a quick orientation about how we got here, back in June, President Trump issued an executive order authorizing National Guard troops to be federalized, largely to protect ICE agents as they are conducting immigration operations throughout the United States, but also to protect some federal buildings, things like that. And in June he sent National Guard Troops to Los Angeles, then DC in August, Memphis last month with the approval of the governor, so Memphis is a little bit different. And now we have the administration attempting and being blocked by a federal judge to federalize National Guard troops in Oregon. In addition to all of that, we have extremely aggressive immigration operations in Chicago and some resistance locally in Chicago to those operations, which have caused the president to federalize more National Guard troops and send them into Chicago.

Sarah [00:10:38] Yeah, I think the occupation of the cities is part and parcel of the massive ratcheting up of ICE, both the hiring of additional ICE agents, the aggressive aides across the country, not just in these cities. That is exactly what he told us he was going to do. They were chaining mass deportations at the RNC. We all saw it. So if people didn’t understand what they were voting for, this is what they’re voting for. I felt like he was really, really clear that this is what was going to happen with ICE. And so he is pushing this aggressive ICE action. And then when there is pushback and there has absolutely been pushback and we can get into that, he uses that to justify these National Guard presences. Although that’s not really what happened in DC. That was not really sort of as much of a piece of it there. But again, it’s not like it matters to him or anybody else if his messaging is wholly consistent around this.

Beth [00:11:47] I think that what you see in the order from the Oregon federal judge is that Trump makes everything the government tries to say in court, he just demonstrates that it’s all a pretext. Like the government comes in, the lawyers for the government come into court and say, here are our legal justifications. We have looked at the laws and we have carved out this pathway to say, here’s why we’re doing it. But then the judge just has to go, cool, but here’s what the president said about why he’s doing it. And it makes it obvious that it is not for any of the reasons you just told me. And also, if I look at the facts, they do not support your reasons or his. That’s what this federal judge, who Trump appointed to serve on the bench, had to say in Oregon, that local law enforcement has things under control in Portland. By September, when he wanted to send National Guard members into Portland, most of the protests were like 20, 30 people or less. So it is not a war zone. It is not what he says it is. He just wants to do it. He wants to it because he wants to to it because he said he wanted to do. There isn’t anything on the ground that is calling for this kind of extraordinary level of action right now. It is the fulfillment of campaign promises.

Sarah [00:13:02] Well, I do want to unpack this a little bit. If someone was to ask you, or if you were to sit down with someone, MAGA or leaning that way, and they said he wants to arrest criminals, which was definitely the justification from the campaign. We’re going to remove people with criminal records, criminal charges, legal immigrants, the gangs, the Venezuelan gangs. That was the initial motivation. Do you feel like that’s what they would say?

Beth [00:13:38] Probably.

Sarah [00:13:39] I want to take that seriously because I do think that is the justification that probably meets with the most agreement from a broad base of Americans. And so I think it’s two things. One, at this point, we have enough numbers to know that’s really not the case. So there are now almost 60,000 people in ICE custody. And according to Transactional Records Access Clearinghouse, it’s a research group from the Syracuse University, 71.5% of them have no criminal convictions. Now, let’s say they are also sweeping up people with criminal charges, okay? What do we think that takes that down to? 60%, 55%?

Beth [00:14:30] Maybe.

Sarah [00:14:30] Like what number would be acceptable? A clear majority of people are not criminals. Are at least charged, but haven’t been convicted. Maybe. They’re not getting the numbers they need based on actual criminal members. And also this raid in Chicago where they used 300 officers in Black Hawk helicopters coming down, breaking into this apartment complex. Three hundred officers, they got 37 detainees. So they detained 37 people, ultimately, two are confirmed members of Tren de Aragua. Two. Three hundred officers. Two. That math doesn’t math. Three hundred officers and 37 detentions doesn’t math to me. So y’all are big and tough. And also my favorite little tidbit about this apartment complex is that it used to be a historically black area of Chicago, does have now a sizable Venezuelan population because the governor of Texas, bust tens of thousands of migrants up to Chicago. So you took these people who are on your side in Texas, said take these people we want to round up, bust them up here, and then you put them up there. And that’s the pretext to send Black Hawk helicopters into apartment complexes, to zip tie children, American citizens, and naked people sleeping in their beds? I don’t think so.

Beth [00:15:59] And then the governor of Texas also says, I’d be happy to lend you some National Guard troops to go get the people I sent there. That’s right. It’s wild. What I would say in that conversation with someone who says, yeah, I am for getting the gang members and the criminals out of the country, is don’t you want to be sure that we have the right people? How many not gang members are you willing to have swept up in this? How many American citizens are you willing to sacrifice in pursuit of that objective? I called my sister this morning who lives in Chicago and said, just how are you taking this in? And she said that she has not seen ICE agents in her neighborhood, but she is aware they are very close to her neighborhood. The parks that they go to, they have two little kids that are usually very busy, especially on a gorgeous weekend like the one they just had, were practically empty. She said there’s a real feeling of people hunkering down. The community groups that she follows on Facebook are all white moms organizing to walk Hispanic children to school because their parents don’t feel safe walking, regardless of their immigration status. It’s like if I look Hispanic right now in Chicago, I am concerned.

Sarah [00:17:16] Because the Supreme Court said that was fine by the way.

Beth [00:17:17] The Supreme Court said that was fine. That kind of intrusion on daily life for millions of people who are not criminals, many of whom are here legally, I think that’s going to be unacceptable to pretty much everyone. I can’t imagine who looks at this and says good on you federal government. This makes a lot of sense. This is exactly what I want community feel to feel like. I understand wanting to live in places that feel safe. This is just a different kind of danger.

Sarah [00:17:54] With regard to the “criminal element” that was their initial justification for all of this. It does seem like we’re bringing a bazooka to a knife fight. Again, if you need 300 officers to get two confirmed members of this gang, then you’re not as tough as you seem. I don’t know, because this the branding of ICE right now. They’re tough guys. You can’t hide anywhere. We’re going to be at the Super Bowl with Bad Bunny. I mean, give me a break. I don’t even know where to start with the Super Bowl bullshit. It’s so stupid. Do you know how hard it is to get Super Bowl tickets? Do you know how expensive they are? Does it seem like something someone whose immigration status was at risk or was being hunted by police officers would go to a high security event like the Superbowl? Like, what is this? So I just think that the criminal element of it at this point they have overshot so hard as indicated in the fact that so many people that have been detained, even currently they’re still in detention, don’t have criminal records. Much less the crazy stories of Canadian teenagers and medical researchers, and all this just stacking up of people being detained and scared and traumatized by a federal government from a side of the aisle that’s supposed to care about the sovereignty of states and the threatening power of a big, strong federal government.

[00:19:32] You’ve got it shut down. You want to gut it. And also at the same time, mass agents pulling American citizens off the street and shoving them in the back of the vans is totally okay. I don’t care if you’re a passive news consumer, at some point that conflict is obvious to everyone. And the part of this that really bugs me is this sense of like, again, it’s mixed messages. So the first is we’re going to get criminals, then it’s we’re going to protect against protesters and ICE attacks. So I want to be fair. There have been several violent attacks on ICE facilities. Now, they have all been in Texas, not in blue cities, but there have been attacks. There was a July 4th attack where an officer was hit in the neck. He survived. They’ve arrested 17 people, even though one person, I think, was the only person there with a gun. There was a July 7th attack at a Customs and Border Patrol facility. In McAllen, the shooter was killed on the scene. There was the September 24th attack in Dallas, heartbreaking. Detainees were shot, too, were killed. Ultimately, one of them just recently died. He was a father of four, had one on the way. And it sounds like the shooter was like very similar to the Charlie Kirk attack, which was terminally online and not overtly political. So there is something happening where people are like lashing out at ICE and ICE facilities and then they are then using that as further justification for National Guard presences in these cities, even though that’s not where the attacks are taking place.

Beth [00:21:11] Yeah, I think Kristi Noem loves nothing more than acting like she is the ultimate victim of the radical left. Just out here with our officers who we should treat as heroes. And what I will say is, obviously, I don’t think anybody should attack an ICE agent or any kind of law enforcement. I do not endorse violence in any direction. Also, Kristi Noem has a responsibility to make sure that her agents conduct operations professionally and legally. And right now, ICE looks to me like temp agencies have filled it with people who have really enjoyed video games. My sister was telling me about friends of hers out this weekend on the Chicago River. And they overheard a bunch of ICE agents high-fiving and bragging about their latest catch. They spoke in video game terms about what they’re doing there. And that is such a discredit to people who have been part of this organization since it began post 9/11, who have really tried to make it professional.

[00:22:19] It used to be that within the Department of Homeland Security. You also had a bunch of civil rights lawyers who made sure that if someone was in custody, there was a person within the federal government ensuring that that person received medical care if they needed it, received nutrition, wasn’t sexually assaulted in the government’s custody. Those folks are gone. ICE has characterized those folks as internal obstacles to efficient operations. And of course they are. They’re supposed to be many, many obstacles built into government work to ensure that government is held to some kind of standard. And that’s not happening anymore. And so, if I could just sit down and have a conversation with her, I would say, 100% the people who are operating in communities to do legal work should be treated with respect and no one should be greeted with violence. And also train these people to act like professionals before they go out and come out of a helicopter for no-- they are escalatory from the first step. There is nowhere to escalate. They’re just starting in such a maximal posture. And it just feels like it’s designed to provoke these communities so that they can go even harder.

Sarah [00:23:40] Well, and it’s emboldening actual criminal elements. There’s all these reports of ICE impersonators attacking women, sexually assaulting women, pulling people, dressing up like ICE agents, kidnapping people. So in the pursuit of illegal immigrants and “criminal elements” you’re emboldened criminal elements. I don’t see JD Vance tweeting about these ICE impersonators and how we have to stop that. He’s tweeting a lot about the attacks on ICE facilities, but there seems to be no concern about how this is endangering American citizens. Because here’s the third thing-- okay, so first it was we’re going up the criminal elements. Second is that we’re just protecting our agents and facilities. And then it’s basically, again, the pretext is eliminated when he basically comes out and says these cities are war zones. And the most insulting part about this, to me, is you are currently trying to end two wars. Actual wars. You know what war zones are like. I would assume, God knows what his security briefings are looking like right now, that you’re getting a real picture of what it’s like on the ground in Gaza right now. And, look, credit where credit is due, this peace process seems to be moving forward, largely because he’s bullying Netanyahu. Round of applause for that. You know what a war is. You know what a war zone really looks like. Stop calling a Portland or Chicago a war zone. I love the editorial from the newspaper in Portland that was like, basically, keep it weird.

[00:25:08] I think there’s all these protests that are showing in really creative, almost funny ways, like really, really smart protest of like there’s no war zone here. We’re fine. We’re happy. We were doing great. I’ve been to Portland; it’s a great place. I remember being in Portland and it was like a Thursday afternoon, everybody was swimming in the river with their dogs. I said, is this a normal Thursday in Portland? And all our Portland listeners were like, yes, this is what we do, we hang out outside. It was blissful. And so I love this, I like the don’t give him what he wants. Because I do feel bad about on Friday we were praising the situation. Don’t give them what it wants. And then over the weekend, it’s accelerated into a fight. And, listen, I got to say I don’t have enough reporting on this. This is just my high level instinct and what I’m watching. I would like to understand more about why I feel like Gavin Newsom is able to stand up for his place without feeling like it’s escalating. And you did have coming out of Los Angeles like a nothing burger of an occupation. Like you didn’t give him the fight he wanted. I don’t feel like that with Pritzker. I’m just going to be really honest. I feel like it is very escalatory and he’s using all this war language. And look, I think this is the trap that comes with these situations, is that politicians on both sides can use it to get the fight they want and get the energy and the emotional energy they want. And people get hurt in the process.

Beth [00:26:35] I will say though that I don’t feel like the escalation is coming from protesters right now. It is coming from the government. I was reading about this elementary school in Chicago where federal agents threw a canister of some kind of chemical agent near the elementary school and the kids had to have their recess inside. I thought this to me has to reach that person who says, even the person who lives in Chicago and who is like we have too much crime here, our local leadership is failing, I want some help. Do you want it? Do you want the war zone brought to your kids, though? There’s a lot of this that just feels so fabricated to me. I agree with you about Pritzker’s rhetoric versus Newsom’s. As much as I don’t like a lot of the Newsom posture, I do think he gets at that sense of both resisting what the government is doing and making fun of the ego behind it. And there is no humor or warmth in Pritzker’s approach. It is I am the real tough guy. And it’s like we’re just going to have this perpetual measuring contest between these two that I am wholly uninterested in.

Sarah [00:27:44] I mean, look, I think it is hard though. Do I think the escalation is coming from the community broadly? No, but there have been escalatory actions. Some people try to ram and pretty successfully used vehicles to ram into ICE and block ICE agents. And there was reporting that the attacker in Dallas used an app that reports on ICE agents’ locations called ICE Block. They’ve since removed it from the app store. There are going to be elements that are escalating it. The communities themselves, I think, have done a good job. I heard some people from Chicago, I think it was on Substack, and I thought they were channeling, the people I was reading in Chicago itself, were kind of channeling that Newsome energy, like, we’re not afraid of you, you’re a joke. I think it’s a really good balance in this moment, but not everybody has that energy. Listen, I went and saw One Battle After Another, and it’s intense and begins with organized violence against ICE facilities. Like they come in, they tie up all the soldiers, they free the people. It’s very intense and it’s hard not to see that movie and think about this argument that involves armed and violent resistance.

[00:29:14] And read some of these reports of like the one in McAllen was like a big group of people, that’s why they’ve arrested all of them. Now, do I think those charges will stick? No. But there was a group of people organizing to resist ICE more aggressively. There were people involved in this Chicago blocking of the vehicles that were organizing to resist ice more aggressively, and I think the smart play from these communities, the community leaders, and particularly the law and local law enforcement is to say we have this under control. We have this under control. Yes, don’t deny that there’s anything problematic, but just the answer is to say-- and I think that’s what’s really smart about this Portland editorial, is to say we’ve got it. We see it. We’ve got it.

Beth [00:29:58] A conversation that you and I have returned to perpetually, I feel like since COVID, is this idea of unevenness in experiences. When you say Portland is lovely, sure. Also, you can find plenty of problems in Portland like any other city, like any community, right? Where I live is lovely and we are imperfect. This is the difficulty of talking about crime ever because any crime is awful. No one wants any crime. What level of crime are we willing to tolerate? What level of crackdown are we willing to tolerating in pursuit of lowering that crime rate? Those are hard questions that a lot of us will answer differently. That risk tolerance is a challenge. We’re not great at it and we’re certainly not uniform in it. So I think this opinion from the federal judge in Portland is worth reading in full. You’ll probably see quotes from it that feel like fiery and exciting to tweet or something. It is all in all a very conservative opinion about the balance of powers between the federal government and states. And over and over, that judge says exactly what you just said, Sarah, that local law enforcement has this under control. She’s not saying everything’s fine. No one has stepped a toe out of line. Every protest has been peaceful and great and just. She is saying the proportion of these events to the federal power being discussed to bring to the table over the objection of state leadership is unacceptable and unconstitutional in our system and that matters. That is important because if we let this happen here, we’ve eroded any limiting principles on it.

Sarah [00:31:44] Well, I think the erosion of limiting principles is the theme. Especially as we start a new Supreme court term.

Beth [00:31:52] Which is something we will continue to talk about. I really appreciate hearing from those of you who live in these communities. I’m definitely going to keep in touch in a close way with my sister about what she’s observing on the ground. But let us know what you’re seeing and hearing and again great job. I know, Sarah, that you’re nervous about us saying anything positive here, but I do continue to feel like great job to the people who are keeping this in a range that is both, I think, inspiring and persuasive. The less you show up for this battle with this administration, I think the more people who were inclined to support these operations will see that they are getting out of control. All right, we always end our shows talking about something Outside of Politics. And honestly the greatest praise that I have for Taylor Swift’s new album, The Life of a Showgirl, is that it is Outside of Politics, it is not a political album. And I am thankful for that.

Sarah [00:33:01] Despite people’s desire to drag it like a dead horse back into the political arena. They trying. They’re trying so hard.

Beth [00:33:15] I am mystified by wanting that. I really am. The last thing on earth that I want is to have some political war of words about an album right now. There’s just enough. I don’t want that cheap, easy, Cracker Barrel logo-esque fight about anything right now. The political stuff that’s real is hard enough. I’d like to just enjoy some things in life.

Sarah [00:33:45] Well, let me drag the dead horse just the same.

Beth [00:33:47] Cool.

Sarah [00:33:49] I think what is happening in my personal opinion is that we are in a moment-- and is there not a moment where marriage in particular is not political? Not probably over the course of my lifetime. We are still having, I think, a very intense conversation, culturally and societally about gender, gender roles, particularly in heterosexual relationships and definitely marriage. And when you write an album about how in love you are with your fiancé, I think that it’s not surprising to me that people are going to have political takes about either a lot of she’s a trad wife now.

Beth [00:34:38] I think that’s a little bit silly for a woman who is a billionaire and continues to conduct her business affairs with an unbelievable amount of savvy and brag about it in songs on that same album. I think that take is a little silly. I get exploring, especially among like the hardcore fan base, the journey from like a Lavender Haze to here. I understand tracking where she’s been and how she got there and having conversation about that. As much as I dislike some of this album and some of the like specificity of this album, I feel like this album is a little bit of a defensive mystery because Sabrina Carpenter’s work is very crass, right?

Sarah [00:35:29] Very.

Beth [00:35:30] It is even a little bit more wink and a nod than some of what’s on this album. And with Sabrina, you don’t totally know which Redwood tree, for example, you’re discussing. I think it’s a little uncomfortable to know so certainly what we’re talking about on this song. But I swear, as between a fight over tradwives and whether this is MAGA coded and the-- I’ll take wood. You know what I mean? I would rather have the crass, lovey-dovey, cringeworthy stuff than another cultural thing that we just turn into a way to be pissed at each other.

Sarah [00:36:09] Yeah. I feel like we’re making the same mistake again. And it pains me that because we all feel so powerless in the face of these occupations and the face international conflicts and the face of this administration broadly, we are policing each other. And I see it with Ezra, I see it with Elizabeth Gilbert, to a certain extent. I definitely see it with Taylor Swift, which is like you’re just not trying. You don’t care enough. You not trying hard enough. And guys, I’m not doing 2.0 on this. I’m doing it. I think there’s plenty to critique in this album. I think Taylor Swift probably should not have made two albums during her Eras tour. I think she was busy and could not dedicate the time and energy and the depth. You just get so much depth from something like Folklore where she was not doing jack all else like the rest of us. That is missing. I think it’s missing from Tortured Poets Department, and I think its missing from this album. And also, who cares? These are pop songs. They don’t have to be deep.

Beth [00:37:15] It’s tricky. How can you make something that’s fine after you’ve made something that great? That’s tough. She has a number of songs and a few albums that are truly special. I don’t think this album is truly special, but I think it’s fun. I generally like it. I think its a good hang when I’m bopping around in my car to errands. The pylons I can’t tell if that is because we want to police each other because we feel powerless like you said, or if it is purely algorithmic. There’s a piece of me that just thinks, man, the incentives to talk about this and to have something interesting to say, to bring tension to it, to bring conflict into it, are so high. There was a part of me that was like should we even talk about this? Isn’t everybody done with it? I’m like, the album’s like four days old. How are we already done with it? But that incentive structure is just so overwhelming right now that I don’t want to read another piece about it. I got it. I feel like I’ve listened, I understand where everybody is on it. Enough.

Sarah [00:38:22] The thing about it that bugs me is there does feel like, forever and always, what I am most interested in is fame and celebrity. I am so happy that Taylor Swift, after making some really great things and being famous since she was like 15 years old, has found this relationship. I’m happy for her to sing about it as much as she wants. I love a good love song. One of my favorite lines on the album is when she says, we told them to leave us the fuck alone and they did. And you hear her go, wow. I love that. I’m so happy for her. Listen, there’s some vibes out there that feel like she was the first girlfriend to get a boyfriend in the group. I’m sorry, I said what I said. There’s a lot of like, oh, I’ve been following her forever. But I’m like can’t you just be happy for her? Can we just be for her personally? I’m happy for personally. If you like her breakup albums more, fine. But that really does something to people because she is just a human being. I know it doesn’t feel like it. And I know she’s a billionaire now. And there’s all that language about why are we filing this billionaire? Which also grates me. But she is a human being in the sense of like you have to sacrifice your personal happiness to create things that are great in perpetuity has, let me not put a finer point on this, killed people. It killed people.

[00:39:51] I don’t know how to say it anymore plainly. Like it destroyed lives and killed very famous, very talented people. And so I don’t want that for her. Great, make an okay album about what good a sex you’re having and how happy you are. I’m thrilled. I’m thrilled for you because I don’t want to see another person sacrifice themselves on the altar of fame to make something great. I’m worried about Lola. I’m glad she canceled everything. There’s all this language and all this writing about like is she the next Amy Winehouse? Which don’t write shit like that, for one thing. And second of all, protect your peace. I think Taylor Swift is the next evolution in celebrities protecting their peace. But I don’t know. She owes it to us. She’s kind of left us behind. There’s just a lot of that narrative in this. And again I don’t care if you critique the album. I think melodically and lyrically there’s weak spots open for critique, but that’s not what people are doing. It’s about her. And then I think you at the same breath could argue she’s brought this on herself because she’s made herself and her personal life such a part of her overall product and project. That’s fair too, but I think the way she kind of scratches at that occasionally is super interesting, including on this album.

Beth [00:41:10] Yeah, if I were offering some notes about this album, what I would say is that it has both too much of Taylor Swift the person and Taylor Swift Inc attached to it. And that’s fueling some of the fires. So I do think the magic of a lot of her songwriting is that it is highly specific to her experiences, but easily mappable onto your experiences. Like take the song actually romantic as an example, which has been endlessly discussed. It is not fun to me to listen to that song and think about the specific beef that Taylor Swift has with Charlie XCX. I don’t think that’s fun at all. I think it’s very fun to listen to that songs and think about the experience of people who’ve picked a fight with you without you knowing it and to think about what it’s like when somebody just seems obsessed with hating you, which is a very human experience that you don’t have to be famous to have had. So taking some Taylor Swift out of it makes it a lot more fun. I would argue that a lot of the Travis centered songs are more fun if you can kind of pull away from Taylor and Travis, who I’m also very happy for, but make them yours. Like that’s the beauty of what she does, that highly specific, that’s so specific, it gives you a little door to walk through and be like, oh my God, this really speaks to this thing for me.

[00:42:29] On the Taylor Swift Inc side, I think that in part because the pressures of the tour that were going on while she was writing this, there is a little too much of the endless variants of the vinyl, the every song has to be an escape room. I think that usually she weaves that fan service in pretty seamlessly. I think with this album, it got in the way of the product. It is cool that the song titles make the shape of the heiress tour stage, but that happened at the expense of the flow of this album. This album rearranged would have been a better listen. And I think that there are moments when she’s choosing the fan service, the hardcore fan service over the art. And that could just be because she didn’t have time to think about it. Another thing I think would have been really cool on this album, she knew people were going to identify all of the sounds that sound like other artists. She’s not unaware of the Jonas Brothers. She’s not unaware of the Jackson Five. They’re a million things, right?

[00:43:33] It would have been so cool, especially given the way she’s been a leader in the industry, for her to speak specifically about that, either in the credits themselves or in another way. Like The Life of a Showgirl as a send up to lots of musical influences for her directly, I think would have been awesome and might’ve been a thing she would have done if she hadn’t been doing 10,000 other things while making this album. So those are the kinds of critiques that I’m more interested in than is she anti-feminist because she’s getting married? Which just seems dumb and like a gift to the Russian bots that like to stir us up over cultural issues here. And still I think it’s a really fun album to listen to in my car.

Sarah [00:44:20] Yeah, I just think the expectations have gotten so high in a way that it’s becoming a machine that’s bigger than the music itself. And that’s hard. Listen, Brandi Carlile’s got an album coming out later this month called Returning to Myself. First song is incredible and sounds very much like a return to classic Brandi Carlyle sound. After she made an album, then made a variant of the album, then made an album with Elton John, which I never listened to. It’s sort of like a parallel track to me, which I think is very interesting. Also, breaking news, they are supposedly, reportedly recording another High Woman album in the winter. Everybody just needs to throw that little treat in there for all of us. And with Taylor, I agree, I’m not even saying like she should meet these expectations. I think the expectations need to lower. There’s all this stuff about like literary experts being confused by her The Fate of Ophelia. And I’m like, guys, Taylor Swift is not a scholar.

Beth [00:45:38] Yeah, it’s not that deep.

Sarah [00:45:39] It’s not, but she kind of perpetuates this idea that she is. And she’s not. And I love her and I think she’s so good at what she does, but she’s not a scholar and she’s NOT an English teacher. And that is a very like pop culture understanding of Ophelia. Fine, I don’t want her to be a Shakespeare scholar. But look, the truth is it’s not just her expectations and it’s not just her branding and her machine. There is now an entire ecosystem of people who create content and make money. Like they’re like the little fish that live on the humpback that eat the stuff off the humpbacks face. Because their entire Instagram channels and their entire TikTok profiles are built on responding to all this stuff and unpacking it. One of my favorite things I read was somebody on Substack that was like let’s review all the shit that wasn’t true.

[00:46:30] The purple cracking, the door, all these theories about this meant this and this meant and none of it was true. But it was just grease for the mill. It’s not surprising coming off the most successful tour of all time. Millions and millions of people didn’t just listen to an album they liked. They had a life experience that was from variants of like fun to life-affirming and they want to relive it and they want to keep doing it. And so, of course, there was all this content that came about because of it. And I agree though the acoustic and the four CDs and the this and the that, I’m like cool. But again I’ve always thought like that part of her brain is the strongest part of her brain. This is like the branding part of her brain.

Beth [00:47:18] A hundred percent. When she said, “If I had known they were going to do the friendship bracelets, I would have invested in beads,” I was like, that’s Taylor Swift distilled right there. And that’s fine. I think maybe some of what’s happening with this album is a lot of us realizing I probably wouldn’t be friends with her. Like if she lived in my neighborhood, I probably wouldn’t love her. And that fine. I don’t need to. I don’t ask the kind of questions about any other artist that we have started asking about Taylor Swift. And so I just want to back up from that. I want to be super happy for them. I also want some distance from them. I want everybody to just be able to chill for a while. I want her to be able to go away and take all the time she needs before she writes another album.

[00:48:05] And I agree with everybody who’s out there saying the 13th album is going to be special to her because of her numbers things. I really hope she just totally goes into her own life in a quiet way that allows her to make that album and to feel like it is special and that it is right up there with Folklore and some of her best work. I wish she would have left Ophelia out of this one, just because I do feel like this is just a pop album and that’s great. Make a pop album if you want to make a pop up album. I didn’t need her to try in the places that she tried when on the same album she was like let me use the word dick a couple of times, which is a word I never need to hear in a song, ever. I come by that, honestly. My mom used to talk about Beavis and his friend because she hated the word butt-head, so I feel like this is my version of that. But she can do what she wants, and she is doing what she want, and it’ll all be fine.

Sarah [00:48:59] Well, and listen, you just cannot detach any and all of this from the fact that she has lived out this public love story. Listen, we all know I’m invested in it. I’m in invested in that relationship way more than I am in this album or the album that come before it or the one that will come after it. Let me just be abundantly clear because I am sincerely happy for her. Not because I think Taylor Swift and I would be friends-- although I do think we would. But because as a person who has watched that level of celebrity, like I said, again, I’m getting choked up, kill people. I’m still sad about Amy Winehouse. I’m sitting here right now in my house on 2025. That’s one of my favorite albums of all time. I’m so brokenhearted about what happened to her. Same for Whitney Houston. And so to see this woman reach the pinnacle that she has and also find personal fulfillment and happiness inside this relationship is just so rare.

[00:49:58] That’s my favorite parts of the album is where you can hear her surprise that this has happened to her. Because I think Ophelia aside, Elizabeth Taylor is a much better metaphor or analogy for this journey she’s on. This idea that you just can’t have it all. You can’t be this famous celebrity artist and have someone love you the way you want to be loved. My favorite thing that’s come out of this entire promotion tour, not all the iterations in the AI videos or whatever, is when she was on with the British on the Graham Norton show, and she was showing off her ring, and she said, “I watch it like a TV.” I thought, shit, you should put that in a song. That is a great line. And I have been there, where I would just stare at my engagement ring for a little while. I just loved it. I watch like a T.V. I cackled. And I’m just, again, so happy for her. I’m happy for here as a person who I do not know because I just remember watching that documentary where she was carrying her cat around in a backpack and like basically couldn’t go out in public. And I thought, oh, this is such a hard life. I’m happy that she found this love story.

Beth [00:51:01] There are lots of credits to that, too. It does make me really happy to hear her still saying, “My mom said” in her songs. Like that’s a beautiful thing for me at this stage of my life to hear.

Sarah [00:51:12] My brother said it’s like eating out of the trash. Oh my God, I laughed so hard.

Beth [00:51:16] And I do think that a lot of her health and wellbeing is a story about supportive family systems.

Sarah [00:51:22] Yeah, 100%.

Beth [00:51:23] And I would love to hear more about that as her writing matures and as she kind of moves into a new phase. I hope that this becomes kind of freeing. She may be past writing songs that my 10-year-old loves to sing. And I think that’s great.

Sarah [00:51:38] Yeah, she has the right to grow and progress.

Beth [00:51:41] To grow up, yes.

Sarah [00:51:41] No, I totally agree about the family thing. I’ve got, “and my daddy says I’m fine” in my head playing right now because it works in the opposite direction as well.

Beth [00:51:49] Yeah, I think it’s really a beautiful thing to see how their families wrap around them. I am more interested in her music than in her personally, but I’m very happy for her. And on the music, something I really value about her, even though I do not think that we would be friends if we lived in the same neighborhood, it’s almost the way when you learn about the enneagrams. If I can just pull a few more basic white woman things in here, I will. But with the Enneagram you learn we gravitate towards one of these numbers, but they all live in us. And I like that in most of her music, you can hear all of it living together. On this album, she tells us I’m not a bad bitch. Basically, what I want is just to be in love and to live quietly. And on the same album, she says, “I like my friends wrapped in Gucci and scandal.”.

[00:52:41] And she does this diss track and she goes so hard. You see the full spectrum. Here’s how much I love. Here’s how close I am to my friends and my family. Also I am so petty and I nurse a grudge like nobody else over years and years. And like all of that existing in one place, I think if you can again take her out of it some, the reason a lot of us connect with it really deeply is it does let you kind of explore the full range of emotion that lives in you. And I hope that both Taylor Swift, the person and Taylor Swift Inc, kind of get the space that they need for the next album to be more of that like invitation for the listener to put themselves back as the main character of the music.

Sarah [00:53:26] Well, and I have a musical recommendation related. So I listened to the album several times on Friday. I enjoyed it. I thought it was fun. But on Sunday, when I was making muffins in the morning, what I turned back on, which I was listening to before this album-- I mean, I don’t ever listen to the Tortured Poets Department ever. And I think this album will probably go the same way. I’ll listen to it a couple of times and then probably won’t listen to it any more. I went back to listening to Olivia Dean. Do you listen to Olivia Dean?

Beth [00:53:54] No.

Sarah [00:53:54] Big fan. She’s got the viral song, the Man I Need. “Talk to me, talk to me. Be the man that I need, babe.” It’s on all the social media videos. If you hear it, you’ll be like, oh yeah, that song. And I loved that song so much. I started listening to the whole song, and then I started to listening to her other work. And she is a delight. The songs, the musicality of the songs, they have these at times like bossa nova, funky, jazz, underpinning, but I am really, really loving her work. Just a great deal. So musical recommendation when we’re talking about albums. I’m loving Olivia Dean right now.

Beth [00:54:29] I love a musical recommendation. I’m listening to Patty Griffin on repeat right now because I’m getting ready to see her in Cincinnati later this month and I’m really, really excited about it.

Sarah [00:54:39] Exciting.

Beth [00:54:40] We’d love to hear your musical recommendations and happy to hear how you feel about the Life of a Showgirl as long as you don’t send it to us so that the algorithm will boost it 10,000 times. But I know that many of you have earnest and well-considered takes that I’m excited to hear. Thank you for spending time with us today. We will be back with you on Friday. Don’t forget to check out our limited run of holiday treats. There’s a link in our show notes. And until Friday, have the best week available to you.

1. The great thing about where we are today is that it’s very easy to make improvements—starting with an open government, for instance.