Janaury 6th Hearings: President Trump Subpoenaed

TOPICS DISCUSSED

  • A Review of and Response to the October 13 Meeting of the January 6th Committee

  • Outside of Politics: Pantsuit Politics’ 7th Birthday Celebrations

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EPISODE RESOURCES

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January 6th Hearings: Pantsuit Politics Resources

TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland. 

Beth [00:00:08] And this is Beth Silvers.  

Sarah [00:00:10] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics. Hello, everyone. Welcome to Pantsuit Politics. We are here to discuss the latest January six committee hearing. This is the first time we've seen the committee since July. I miss them all so much. And probably one of the last times we will hear from the committee and, boy, did they go out with a bang.  

Beth [00:00:39] We've covered the hearings in depth because we think they are essential to the ongoing health of our democracy. And if you want to revisit those discussions about previous hearings, we're going to put links in our show notes. We have a whole study guide for you with links to everything we've done in our newsletters on social media and on the podcast. We really think this is important and we hope that we're communicating that and making it easy for you and the people that you care about to be engaged.  

Sarah [00:01:04] Outside Politics, we are going to be celebrating a very major milestone here at Pantsuit Politics. We're going to talk about that at the end of the show, so make sure and stick around for that. But, first, we got to talk about Liz and the gang and what they had to share with us today. We are recording on Thursday, October 13th, and the Select Committee to investigate the attacks on the United States Capitol on January 6th has just wrapped up. What I believe to be their final hearing. Now, it's a little confusing because they went out with a bang by subpoenaing former President Donald J. Trump. But, Beth, do understand this to be the last hearing? I feel like this is the last hearing.  

Beth [00:01:53] I think it is the last hearing before the midterm elections, most likely. And depending on the outcome of the midterm elections, it could be the last hearing. I am not ready to accept that Republicans are going to win the midterm elections. People are still voting.  I don't like to be defeatist about elections. And what I really want everybody to hear, especially as we consider what the committee presented today, is that your vote matters. The midterm elections are close. Elections that are going to dictate who has the power to certify the next presidential election are on the line here. So don't be discouraged or despondent. It is just the case that if you want the work of this committee to continue, Democrats are going to need to hold the majority in the House of Representatives. And I think the weight of commentary would say that that is definitely not a sure thing and perhaps less likely than Republicans taking the majority. So that was a long answer too probably.  

Sarah [00:02:52] Before we get to the substance of the hearing with the elections right around the corner, I think it is important to emphasize Liz Cheney said without accountability, this becomes the norm. And the January 6th Committee is not the only source of accountability. And I think that's always important to remember. I think they see themselves as sort of the locus of all accountability, like, let us gather information and send it to the Justice Department or help state investigators or help someone who might sue privately. Like, let's just talk about who these these investigators in Congress, what evidence they've gathered and who they feel is a responsible. And the resounding conclusion from this hearing was Trump. Trump was responsible and they ended the committee by voting. This was actually not an official hearing, but a business meeting of the committee, and they voted to issue a subpoena for former President Trump.  

Beth [00:03:55] The other aspect of their role that I think is significant as you lead into them voting to issue the subpoena is that they have decided that they are going to be the storytellers, that they are keeping the historic record of what happened here, that they are the official repository for what went down because they are the storytellers with the most powerful tools to gather all of that evidence and put it in one place. And so you could say to yourself, well, why issue a subpoena when their work could be winding down? And I think it's because they know that their work will be judged by history and let history know that they requested his testimony. He either fought it or he didn't. If Republicans take the majority, they either withdraw the subpoena or they don't. But they are saying we're willing to use the tools that we have. And this is our most powerful one, and we've methodically built our case for its use and now we're employing it.  

Sarah [00:04:53] Yeah. Another part of Liz Cheney's opening statement that really struck me is when she said, "We cannot just punish the foot soldiers." And I think that's what the subpoena was meant to signal, is we've brought everyone else here to talk about what happened. How can we make the case that he is the sole reason this happened and not call him to come give his testimony? So I think it was the right call. And I think they spent a lot of time in this hearing, not just emphasizing that he was the center point of all this, but really both summarizing previous hearings and testimony showing that this was premeditated, that he planned to do this all along. And we saw some new video from Steve Bannon and Roger Stone. Really, again, how are these people still shocking me? But it was shocking to just hear them say, like, even if he loses, he's going to say he won. Just straight up. This is the plan. The plan is to take advantage of any confusion, delay, anything and claim victory and say he won. Roger Stone is is shown on video saying possession is 9/10 of the law f*** you, we won."  

Beth [00:06:05] In October! 

Sarah [00:06:07] In October. It's really shocking. And so, they go through this, they spend really an interesting moment with Adam Kinzinger showing that he knew he lost after the election because he was pursuing some unfinished business, like, withdrawing all troops from Afghanistan and Somalia, which he knew would create a mess for the next president, who he knew was Joe Biden. You kind of had to put the pieces together to make the connection of what he was saying. But listening to all these people say he withdrew these troops knowing it was going to be a catastrophe, which it was which, we saw, and he did it anyway because he knew he was on his way out the door.  

Beth [00:06:47] I think a compelling part of that testimony, which included testimony from Keith Kellogg and Mark Milley, was demonstrating that Trump, I think, was in the headspace you described: I want to finish what I said I would do, and I don't care what it leaves for Joe Biden to clean up. But the reality is that had those orders been fully executed, it would have been catastrophic for the American service members involved, too. There was a present danger in the reckless approach to being the commander in chief that he was willing to take because he was just in this tantrum, pouting, and sour grapes-  

Sarah [00:07:39] He was just mad.  

Beth [00:07:40] -my feelings are all that matter. And you can't be a my feelings are all that matters person when you're entrusted with control of the American military. Not to mention the real work the American military is doing, however you feel about our engagement in those countries. It is not for no reason. Intelligent people who care about our country can differ on what we should be doing there. But I think everyone understands there is a purpose and it's a purpose that has to be interrogated beyond well we should just bring everybody home. But his headspace, he was so consumed with his own reaction to this election. And I thought it was really compelling later, when Cassidy Hutchinson described hearing him say to Mark Meadows, "I don't want people to know we lost. It's embarrassing." I mean, that is the emotional maturity that we're dealing with here. And there's a part of me that thinks, you know what, it probably was. I bet it's really hard to lose a presidential election. I bet it is really, really hard. But at the same time, if you translate that to so I'm just going to withdraw troops wherever I feel like it, that is so dangerous. And I thought that Representative Kinzinger was the right member of the committee to present that and presented it in a really compelling way.  

Sarah [00:08:56] They were using everything in their power. There was a lot of summarizing. The first half of the hearing in particular was a lot of, like, let me just put all this together. We're going to go one by one and all of us will take different pieces, and we're going to put all this together for you so you can see he premeditated this plan. He worked with corrupt actors who he knew would break the law, commit violence. He put all these pieces in place before the election. And then once the election happened, he refused to listen at first declared victory, then accepted the reality that he was lost, and then basically tried to stage a coup-- I don't know any other way to put it-- to keep control of the presidency. And so they're like putting all these pieces together there. They're taking testimony from the hearings, they are taking some of the testimony that they'd already received, they're putting all together.  

Beth [00:09:46] I just want to interject with the piece from Representative Luria where she showed this really effective back and forth of Bill Barr and Donald Trump. And it was like Bill Barr would say something on a date and a day later, Donald Trump goes out and tells the lie that Barr debunked for him the day before. And it went over and over. He's advised of this, and then he goes out and says the same thing anyway. And the only piece missing from that presentation for me was the fact that he's still doing it. He's still doing it today, saying the same things that have been debunked for him for over a year now.  

Sarah [00:10:27] Yeah.  

Beth [00:10:28] So I thought that was really effective. I just wanted to go that final piece to say to people, this matters right this very minute because he keeps saying it and he's motivated a whole army of candidates across this country to keep saying it.  

Sarah [00:10:44] Yeah. And then we get to Representative Raskin, who his hearing that he kind of ran was really about time period during which Donald Trump knew what was happening, knew the violence being perpetrated and did nothing. And I think the reason this part of today's hearing was so impactful, even though we'd heard that case before, is they had all this video in contrast of people who were of actual leadership and what it looked like on the ground. They had all this video, particularly of Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, but also standing in Congress with Mitch McConnell, John Thune-- I had a real empathetic moment with Senator Thune. You can see him in the background rocking back and forth. And I thought, oh, you and me, friends, because that's what I do when I'm stressed. I just rock back and forth. And I thought, I see you, I acknowledge your stress. And let me just say, watching all that was incredibly impactful, incredibly powerful. I don't ever really want to hear another negative word about Nancy Pelosi. You watch her in her mask because she's been exposed in her late seventies and early eighties to COVID at this particular moment, and she is trying desperately to get back to the place where the violent protesters are in order to show continuity of government and trust in government. It's incredible to watch her do this. Can we talk about the moment where she's, like, they've probably defecated on the House floor, but we can clean that up easily. Just moments when you see Nancy Pelosi's experience as a mother of five shines through for me, are just so strong. She's like, it's poop. We can clean it up. That's not a big deal. We can handle that. We're going to get back out there. We're going to do our jobs. Just like she is watching CNN-- she is literally watching people want to physically harm her, specifically, using her name. And she's, like, okay, how soon can we get out there? Calling anybody she can think of because the press is not going to do anything. It was insane.  

Beth [00:12:48] Her horror when she was told that her colleagues were putting on gas masks was, to me, the most impactful moment of the hearing today before the vote at the end, because it just put into perspective-- I don't know the empathy that I feel for someone who sees people she cares about in a dangerous situation, that she can't do anything about it right now, that this is all happening. She says at some point, like, "We have to do something to give people confidence that the government can function, that we can elect a president. What are we even doing here?" And how remarkable that her daughter was with her and captured that footage. That her daughter happens to be a documentary filmmaker who happened to be with her and recognized the gravity of the moment and had the presence of mind to capture it, as she did, because that footage is extremely compelling. Just when they're on the phone and she says, "I have something to say," and is pointing down, "I am calling the mayor of Washington, D.C., to see what she can do to help us." It was stunning.  

Sarah [00:13:55] Even when Steny Hoyer is listing all these, I was impressed at that moment. He's like, well, what about here? What about this troop? What about this police force? Like, just listing who they could access. There is no other word to describe what you see in that footage than bravery. That's the only way to describe it. To know you are under threat, to know people you care for are under threat, and your just single vision is we must complete this task; it is about more than us. It's incredible. It is incredible.  

Beth [00:14:29] And it was shared among Democrats and Republicans.  And it tells you about what kind of person we need to elect in the midterm elections, because you want to elect people who, even if you disagree with them about everything else, people who in those moments say there is something bigger here than me and I need to go complete this job because it isn't about me. Instead of electing people who want to ride and get their ticket punched by a crowd that they are actively deceiving and then run and hide from the monster they've created when the moment comes and have no care for the effect on the American public, that is my fear that the midterm elections are a moment when the American people need to decide whether we want people who are about themselves or people who are about the offices, and that we will choose unwisely and dangerously. And I hope that seeing this footage inspires you, whatever your policy or partizan leanings are, to put serious people in those rooms for those serious moments.  

Sarah [00:15:46] So the committee spent a lot of time tightening their case, using as much video footage as they could to summarize it in an impactful way. They issue a subpoena for Donald J. Trump. So that's where we are now. That's where we are. Now we have to see what's going to happen. I think there is a temptation to sort of say, did it matter or what has the committee done? I just don't think we know yet. I just don't think that we can say, even as we feel like this is probably sort of their finale, the summation of their case, sort of the historical impact of what they have done and what they have put together. We're not going to know for a while. I think you can already see that they have greased the wheels. I think that that much is abundantly clear. It feels to me as if many, many, different institutions have either felt the increased pressure from the committees work, had the ability to increase their momentum due to the committees work-- whatever it is, like you feel that speed increasing from the DOJ and from other areas that they have said and proven and concluded as clearly as they can that accountability is essential. There must be accountability for January 6th. There must be accountability at the highest levels for January 6th. And I think they have made that case.  

Beth [00:17:21] And what they said today is that that accountability must be criminal. I mean, whether they formally decide to issue something styled as a criminal referral to the Department of Justice or not, they spent this hearing establishing Donald Trump's state of mind and his state of mind to the extent that they hammered away at it today is really only relevant if you're talking about criminal charges. Did he have the specific intent to do this? And the answer today was, yes, he did. And, listen, I did not walk into these hearings convinced of that fact. But I walked out of them convinced of it because it was an extremely thorough and compelling look at how at every step he had all the information- all of it- and he made his choices. And those choices led to that violent, dangerous, historically embarrassing moment for our country. And he watched it on TV and cheered it on and inflamed it. I don't know how you watch these hearings and see the presentation of evidence and conclude otherwise. I really don't.  

Sarah [00:18:33] I've always been on board with criminal charges, but I was worried about how they'd prove them. So I may be a bad prosecutor because I'd be, like, I just feel it in my gut; let's go for it. But I think you're right. I mean, I don't think they've left any doubt. I think they have garnered the evidence and presented it fairly because that was what I was worried about.  I myself believed he didn't have anybody telling him the truth and he cannot accept reality. But I think they've made a pretty good case that that is not accurate. That he had plenty of people telling him the truth and that he understood it, he just fought. And he fought it in ways that broke the law and endangered other people. And I think this is the part that they've done such a good job of as well. It's not just about January 6th. It's not just the threat on that day. It's that he opened up this door. He opened up this chasm of threat, this possibility, this opportunity that he's shown to other people. And if we do not also say to those other people, "Yes, you could do this. You could, and maybe you'd even do it better. But you will be held accountable. You want to try it? Fine. We can't stop you necessarily. But what we can say is that if you do, there will be consequences."  I think they've done a good job of saying there are preventative measures we can take. We're always going to be a democracy. I think Liz Cheney has made the case that we don't reach a destination in a democracy where we're safe from this level of threat. We don't get to a place where, like, we did it. We're safe from despots. We have to continue to do this work always. And there are both preventative measures that we must do, like, Electoral Count Act is one of them. But there are also sort of these punitive-- I don't know another word for it-- things we have to do so that someone knows, well, I can try it, but this is what could happen to me.  

Beth [00:20:38] Yeah. I don't want to detour us but I was taking a moment today, just briefly before we started recording, thinking about why did I feel so much watching that vote for the subpoena? I think it's because you have this sense that, okay, we do have an institution in the United States Congress that will take a step when the line has been crossed. It's taken an awful long time for them to do it. And that's not really fair. I mean, the House impeached Trump over it, but the the failure of the Senate to convict is, I think, a scar on us as a country that cannot fade. That is an intense scar that's left here.  

Sarah [00:21:22] Problem is it's not a scar. It's an open wound.  

Beth [00:21:25] Yeah. And so this feels like you can't ever fix that, but it feels like we're walking in a better direction. And combining that with this enormous verdict against Alex Jones, where you recognize that, yes, in a country where you can speak freely, people are going to say dangerous things, but sometimes those things cannot be tolerated and there will be a consequence. They can still say them, but they will have to accept a consequence associated with it. It feels like maybe we're marching towards something that is imperfect and that is fragile and that is explosive and contentious. But that is still like pursuing some shared vision for what we can live here and do together. And that gives me a lot of feelings, but comfort is among them.  

Sarah [00:22:13] Yeah. We had a conversation on our premium channels about accountability and what does it mean when we know there are systemic issues. When we're holding an individual accountable but we understand inherently that there are systemic problems at play. And that's true here, right? We both know that Donald Trump is individually responsible and also that he exposed systemic problems that we all knew were there. It's not like the Electoral Count Act was ever a great solution [Inaudible]. But he just exposed those weaknesses. Well, how do you come back from that? Well, you learn. You learn, and you address the things you know. When you know better, you do better. And he has shown us things that we have to fix and we're not done because, again, he has opened up this chasm that other people are going to try to exploit. We see them as candidates for Secretary of State all over the country. And I think it's just this new era. It's the strengthening. It's this weakening, strengthening paradox where a lot of things we assumed for many, many years-- not all the entirety of our country, we've at other points in our history where people have exploited the weaknesses inside our systems. But we're outside of that period where the norms were the glue that was holding everything together. Well, those norms aren't going to work anymore. And the idea that people will just respect the norms aren't going to do it. I think that that's what it's interesting because it's like what the argument the January six committee is making is, like, here were the norms, but that's all they were and he didn't respect them. It's like you're trying to point out that this is what everybody else did and he didn't do it. But, in making that case, you're really showing that the norms are not enough. The norms are not enough. We're going to have to have other things at certain points. We're going to have to have structural things in place. And only to get to a point where we'll realize, oh, there were norms propping up this part and now we need structural things to hold those in place. I just think that thats the perpetual work of a democracy, but we have some of that work to do right now and they have shown that. 

Beth [00:24:35] Well, and I feel myself wanting to say, like, what are those structural things? And I don't think we know all of them. I don't think they all exist at the federal level. I think there are structural things like a return of really in-depth civics curriculum so that we have an expectation of what a senator does besides host a podcast. I think there are lots and lots of pieces here because that is where a lot of the complexity and my emotion comes from today. That not only did the Trump presidency expose these structural deficiencies and end lay bare how much our infrastructure of democracy needs to catch up with the size of this nation and the present conditions of the world. But also the sadness that I feel that Donald Trump was never writing on a blank sheet of paper in terms of the feelings and the opinions in this deep seated interest we have in being enraged at each other all the time. Because I don't believe he's ever been motivated by some great set of philosophy or ethics or values or policy positions, he also understood that he could amass money and power and influence by using the industry of politics, by wielding all of our feelings and all of the ways that we are all messed up to feed the money machine, that same money machine that is emailing all of us 8 to 10 times a day right now about elections, and the same one that creates opportunities for people to become TV stars talking about what's happening on cable news. He saw the dollar signs as though we were a set of slot machines and we were primed for it. And it just makes me really sad that we were primed for it. And I want to ask not only what do we do to the Electoral Count Act, but how do we not look like that set of slot machines anymore?  

Sarah [00:26:44] The response that is so tempting that I think so many Americans take is to just opt out. And I think the January 6th committee did a good job of really trying to reach those people to say, no, this is still worthwhile. Please don't just assume it's all broken. Don't be a cynic. Don't be a skeptic. Don't be agnostic. Let us let us make this case to you that this matters, that holding him accountable matters, that this isn't just the same old political bullshit. I mean, that's why they used Republicans solely as witnesses, right? Because they're saying, "Hey, guys, this is not just politics as normal that you tune out. This is different. This is worse. We have to pay attention. We have to do something about it." I mean, and that is the work that we all have to carry on now that the committee is winding down its work. We have to continue to make that case as citizens. We have to continue to say, no, the problem with Donald Trump was not just mean tweets. That wasn't the issue. The issue is his complete and total disregard for the rule of law. And now he has spread that like a virus throughout the Republican Party. And that should matter just as much to Republicans as it does to Democrats. That's the charge, right? Because there's a lot of this that we can't control as everyday citizens. There's a lot of this process that they have now empowered and energized that is going to have to continue on without a lot of say from us. But because it's a democracy and because this matters, because the conversations we hold in our communities matter, we have to continue to give voice to that, to give voice, to say, no, we can't just be cynics and we can't just opt out. We have to continue to pay attention to this. This is important. People have to be held accountable, including Donald Trump.  

Beth [00:28:43] This is a little bit of a harsh thing to say, and I hope that I say it with a spirit of grace. But I also hope we realize that the committee's outreach to people who are tempted to opt out has come at a fairly significant cost. Focusing the story as they've had to has left a lot of threads out there that we should know more about and we might not get to in a very public way. The American public, and particularly people who have been protected by the Secret Service, deserve to know why records were deleted and deserve to know about what was behind some of the very bizarre text messages that we saw from Secret Service agents today. We deserve that information, and we're not going to get it because they had to confine their time to the one thing that they really wanted to ask of us, because that's how difficult our attention is to captivate. And I'm not trying to say that's an individual responsibility. That's another one of those group efforts that we have to work on. I think it comes at a significant cost that we only heard from Republican witnesses. I think it comes at a significant cost that the committee had to make the decision to hold Mike Pence up as a hero instead of insisting that we hear his testimony as well, because this historic record deserves under oath testimony from Vice President Pence about what happened leading up to, and on, and after January 6th and we're not going to get it. So all of our apathy costs us a lot. And even as they have handled this process, I think about the best way they possibly could have. They are also not writing on a blank sheet of paper. And it's worth it to say, "Okay, let's tune in. Let's heed this call. Let's do what we need to do. Let's get engaged." Which means, like you said, vote. Challenge people who say it was just the tweets. Be really clear-eyed about what the threat is here. But then also let's hang with it and level up our game, even when it doesn't feel like everything is falling apart every day, so that the next time it falls apart we can handle that a little bit better.  

Sarah [00:30:59] I do want to take into account, as we wrap up our coverage-- although not our conversations about the January 6th committee I'm sure-- that all of you who did engage with these hearings, who showed up with us on Instagram live and watched along, who asked questions, who just kept watching and telling those in your lives to watch and why it was important to watch, thank you. Thank you so much. Like, that is the work. That is the work of citizenship. And you guys have been out there doing it, has been incredibly encouraging and empowering. And I didn't need more reasons to believe that we have the best community on the Internet, but this was certainly one of them. And that's a great transition into our next segment of the show where we're going to talk about our big milestone here at the Pantsuit Politics community. In seven episodes of Pantsuit Politics, we will turn seven years old. Beth, can you believe it?  

Beth [00:32:15] No, I cannot.  Short answer, no.  

Sarah [00:32:20] So we are going to count down. Listen, we have a plan. We are leaning all the way in to this seven situation and every episode is a countdown. We want to celebrate the seven years we've grown so much, and we want to celebrate by continuing to grow. So here is what we're going to do as we count down to our seventh birthday. We're going to have challenges for you. You can enter to win a Pantsuit Politics time capsule, which is really fun. It's like swag from all our iterations of our logo. Remember the high heels, Beth?  

Beth [00:33:01] I do remember the high heels.  

Sarah [00:33:03] I love the high heels. My friend Pam designed that logo. It holds a special place in my heart.  

Beth [00:33:09] There are a number of components to this challenge. We've tried to keep it simple, but we are not great at simplicity around here, so this is characteristically complex for us. We're going to do a special episode on our birthday and we're going to talk about the seven things that we have as a community learned from Pantsuit Politics. And we want your input because that's the big learning of this entire venture for me. So we don't do anything alone and we don't want to celebrate just with what Sarah and I have learned, we want to think about everyone. So we will put a call out on Instagram to hear the things that you have learned by listening the Pantsuit Politics. Or you can email us at Hello@Pantsuitpoliticsshow.com. But just please either engage with us by email or watch on Instagram for that challenge because we really want to hear from you.  

Sarah [00:33:57] So if you email us or share on Instagram what you have learned from Pantsuit Politics, you can follow the link in the show notes and enter to win the time capsule. So every time we give you a challenge and you complete it, you can follow the link in the show notes and it'll be another entry to win the time capsule. And by just entering, you're going to get some digital birthday [Inaudible]. So you should do that no matter what. 

Beth [00:34:18] It's like little favors. Party favors everytime.  

Sarah [00:34:19] It's like a party favor, yeah. You're going to get some of our special playlist, including what I consider to be my perfect holiday playlist. I have backup on that opinion. Many of you have also told me that it is a perfect holiday playlist just in time. So share with us what you've learned. You can either put it in the Instagram post or you can email us at Hello@Pantsuitpoliticsshow.com. We'll have additional challenges on the way to our seventh birthday. I'm so excited. And along the way just share the show. That's the best gift you can give us. You can just keep sharing the show. We will be back with you next week. And until then, keep it nuanced y'all.  

Beth [00:35:13] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director.  

Sarah [00:35:18] Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music.  

Beth [00:35:24] Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.  

Executive Producers (Read their own names) [00:35:28] Martha Bronitsky. Linda Daniel. Allie Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Hasler. Helen Handly. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Katina Zugenalis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Molly Kohrs. Laurie LaDow. Lilly McClure. Emily Neesley. The Pentons. Tawni Peterson. Tracy Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stiggers. Karen True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Katherine Vollmer. Amy Whited.  

Beth [00:36:03] Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Joshua Allen. Morgan McCue. Nicole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.  


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